Rats in the Cellar: “What Ever Happened to Baby Jane”

Tony Maietta:
This episode of Going Hollywood is dedicated to the memory of Mrs. Rose Sarp. Your air laugh will live forever.

Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian, Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Bette Davis Clip:
All this time, we could've been friends.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, you know very well about the stories behind the big feud between Bette Davis and Joan Crawford.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. I've I've I've heard 1 or 2. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. A few things have come out about that.

Tony Maietta:
Just a couple.

Brad Shreve:
I don't think we should harp on that too much because so much has been said about it, and it's hard to determine which what is true and what is not. But I do think we need to at least touch on it, and we would be remiss not to discuss it in some manner. And so I'm gonna play a little something for you. Okay. Oh, fun. This is Bette Davis in 19

Tony Maietta:
Singing whatever happened to Baby Jane? Whatever happened to babe BJ? Sorry. I had to

Brad Shreve:
get it in. No. I cannot put up with that little girl singing that song. I can't imagine

Tony Maietta:
It's not her. It's it's her on Bette on the Andy Williams Show singing whatever happened to Baby Jane. You ever saw that?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I didn't know that. No. No. No. No. I just

Tony Maietta:
I just sang it for you. So

Brad Shreve:
This is from 1987, an interview with Bryant Gumbel on the Today Show.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, good. Good. Good. Good.

Brad Shreve:
And Bryant asked her about the story between her and Joan Crawford and whatever happened to baby Jade.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Brad Shreve:
And here's what Bette had to say.

Bette Davis Clip:
I know. Isn't it incredible where forever linked we made one film? It's funny that remains. I'm sorry. I I Well, it was a good movie. It was a good movie. I don't you

Tony Maietta:
all the

Bette Davis Clip:
As far as making the film with her, she was on time. She knew her lines. She's basically was a pro. But we're very different kind of women, very different kind of actresses. Yes. How much you push? The weight gain when she saw it too, and I didn't get the Oscar for baby Jane. She went to all the New York nominees and said, if you can't get out there, I'll accept your award. And, please do not vote for her.

Bette Davis Clip:
She was so jealous. She was a fool, my dear. We had great percentage. If I had won that, Oscar, we'd have made a 1,000,000 more dollars on the film. That's what always happens. So she didn't wasn't very smart about what she did.

Tony Maietta:
You hurt by the memory of that?

Bette Davis Clip:
I was furious because that would have made me the first person with 3. And as I you know, I always have to be first as an Aries. Yes. And I should have had it all, very immodest of me. I should have had it for that year. No question.

Tony Maietta:
So much to unpack in that clip.

Brad Shreve:
I love the first thing she said is she knew her lines, and she was on time.

Tony Maietta:
That for, for how's that for a compliment? She was on time, and she knew her lines. Well, I love so many things about that clip. First of all, I love that that's post stroke Bette. So she's really unfiltered, and everything is like this. But here's what I so many things I love about that clip. Yes. That backhanded. She was on time.

Tony Maietta:
She knew her lines. But Bette said that, you know, Bette held that they were nothing alike. And okay. Can I will you just talk for a minute here about that? Okay. Bette always said I was not I that Joan was the movie star, and Bette was the actress. Okay. But what was Bette Davis but an actress? And Joan Crawford gave some incredible performances on film. They were both strong women who fought for their stardom.

Tony Maietta:
They were both Aries. They both had ungrateful children who wrote tell all books about them. They were both married 4 times, and they both were demanding driving perfectionists who were under professionals for most of their careers. So I don't know if that's nothing in common. That sounds like a hell of a lot in common to me, Bette, but I understand what you're saying.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Indeed. Though Joan's daughter waited until she died before she wrote her book, did she not?

Tony Maietta:
She did, but but that's just because BD, Bette's daughter thought Bette was gonna die. And she didn't. Bette had a series of and she didn't. That's the thing. And Bette said that. She wrote the book because she thought Bette was going to die because she had a series of strokes. She had cancer, which eventually killed her. But, you know, Bette Davis, there was no keeping Bette Davis down, obviously.

Tony Maietta:
She did not die, and that book came out. And, boy, can you imagine what a what a gut punch from your only biological child. Bette had 3 children, 2 were adopted. But BD was hers. She gave birth to her. So to and she was her pride and joy too. So in Bette Davis' credit, she carried on for a couple more years and did interviews like that you just played, which I loved. I loved that.

Brad Shreve:
And there's a big difference between Bette and her daughter. I mean, I I remember an interview. It may even been the same one where Bette said, I I don't believe women should wait to have sex before they get married because they get married and based I don't remember her exact words, but what if it's not any good?

Tony Maietta:
No. Yeah. Well, she said that she said her mother made a huge mistake with that, but she didn't allow her to.

Brad Shreve:
And then you turn around, and her daughter is now a minister.

Tony Maietta:
B. D. Hyman. Ministry for years. B. D. Hyman turned into a horror story. Much scarier than anything in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane.

Tony Maietta:
Much scarier. But, by the way, that is one of the scary things about Whatever Happened to Baby Jane is it features BD Merrill at that time, Bette Davis's daughter. And and she remember how we talked about Truman Capote and I said last week and I said that he was on the cusp of just so bad, he's good, he didn't quite make it. Same thing with BD. She just is bad in this movie, but it's one of the treats of watching this movie. So I think we should say we're talking about whatever happened to Baby Jane. Did we say that yet, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I don't know. But yes, we are talking about whatever happened to to baby Jane. If you haven't figured it out by now

Tony Maietta:
I would think they the

Brad Shreve:
only movie they did together.

Tony Maietta:
It's the only movie they did, and they're forever linked. We did one movie, and we're forever linked because of that movie. But because of a lot of other reasons. Because of a lot of other reasons. Before we start, I do think we I do wanna set a couple parameters here because, otherwise, this podcast has the potential for being as long as the movie itself, which is way too long. I don't want us to discuss the Ryan Murphy show feud. I don't. We can maybe talk about that some other time.

Tony Maietta:
Maybe next year, we can talk about feud. I have a lot of thoughts about feud, but you know what? I don't want you but you can go online and watch a lot of great videos, and, there's just great resources out there to talk about what Feud got right and what Feud got wrong. In my opinion, pretty much everything is wrong. Feud, except for the fact that BD Hyman was indeed Bette Davis's daughter. But I I liked some things about Feud, some things I didn't, but I don't wanna talk about Feud. I don't wanna talk about Feud. Right?

Brad Shreve:
I agree with you, and here's my reason why. We've talked about Ryan Murphy before. I can't remember the name of the movie. It's the one where Darren Criss starred as the the serial killer that killed Versace.

Tony Maietta:
It's the American Horror Story. It's Versace. Versace.

Brad Shreve:
The Versace. Now Darren Criss, when it first came on, I'm I'm feel like, oh my god. I'm watching Blaine from Glee. I'm never gonna be able to separate him. This is not gonna be good. And then he quickly changed me. He was fucking scary.

Tony Maietta:
Brilliant.

Brad Shreve:
I was really impressed by that, but Ryan took a lot of liberties in that movie.

Tony Maietta:
Well, he always does. And That's Ryan Murphy.

Brad Shreve:
He does. And so that's why I'm not like, the feud, I have no desire to see the feud because how do I take I'd have to research to find what was true and what was Ryan Murphy.

Tony Maietta:
Or you could just ask me. So Just ask me. I'm telling you. Because I'm sitting there with my notebook going, that's not right. That's not right. That's not right. You know, the last two episodes, I'm just this is the last thing I wanna say about Feud. I love the performances.

Tony Maietta:
Jessica Lange is wonderful. I don't know who she's doing. She's not doing Joan Crawford. She's doing a movie star like Joan Crawford, and she's brilliant. Susan Sarandon, not so much. She could have had a little more fire in her. But the last two episodes are wonderful because it deals with them aging and what they dealt with. But the Baby Jane stuff, the Baby Jane episodes, yes, much more fiction than fact in any of that.

Brad Shreve:
Good. Then I will continue staying away from they they're great. They're they're certainly entertaining, but they're, I'm gonna say it, lies mixed in with truth. And then, you know, I don't mind a movie that you know, they do this all the time. They take 2 care 2 real people and combine them into one character. I get it.

Tony Maietta:
You got

Brad Shreve:
a 2 hour movie, you have to do that. I don't have issues with that. But when they change the entire storyline, that's an issue for me.

Tony Maietta:
No. Well, I we talked about it before. It's dramatic license versus dramatic licentiousness. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Perfect perfect description.

Tony Maietta:
I can't tolerate it at all. But but this, whatever happened to baby Jane, talking about the differences between these women and their alleged feud, I think it's really fascinating because I just listed the the way these these women were similar. And wouldn't it have been wonderful if they could have just been able to commiserate with each other for those similarities, for their ungrateful children, for their unsuccessful marriages, for being 2 powerhouses 2 powerhouse women in Hollywood dealing with what Hollywood does to older actresses. And, you know, it kind of summed up so beautifully in baby Jane. All that time, they could have been friends. So it's really it's it's but they couldn't. They couldn't get past it. But that's also what makes baby Jane whatever happened to baby Jane so delicious is the knowledge that these two women did not like each other, but worked together and made this incredible film.

Brad Shreve:
And what the funny part about that is and I'm not even gonna try and paraphrase. So I'll just say her intent to say Bette Davis was her concern about women is they tend to be catty against each other when strong women should be supporting each other to help lift each other up. And then here she is that, feud with Joe.

Tony Maietta:
That yeah. Well, that's just Bette Davis. I mean, Bette Davis. Yes. That's just who Bette Davis was. Bette Davis was number 1. She said it's a Brian Gumbel. You know I have to be number 1, and she was absolutely right.

Tony Maietta:
She baby Jane was her 10th Oscar nomination, and she would have been the 1st actress to win 3. But but in saying she deserved it, okay, well, she always thought she deserved it. We've said that before. But she kind of negates an incredible performance, and this whole Oscar thing between them negates an incredible performance done by 1 Anne Bancroft in the miracle worker. So, yes, Bette, you did an amazing job as baby as as Jane Hudson. We're gonna talk about that. But you can't negate that Anne Bancroft, in most people's opinion, and in fact, in the academy voters' opinions, gave the best performance that year. Now that's arguable.

Tony Maietta:
I happen to prefer Katharine Hepburn in Long Day's Journey tonight, but we'll talk about it some other time.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. I I was really wowed by Bette, and I could see why she was nominated. I have seen The Miracle Worker many times, but I can't remember it enough to say she should've won the the award. So We

Tony Maietta:
should do it sometime. We'll watch it. We'll save that one for next year too. We got 2 for next season already on the docket. But whatever happened to baby Jane, we're talking about today. One of our Halloween episodes from Warner Brothers in 1962. And I wanted to ask you, what is your first memory of seeing this film?

Brad Shreve:
Well, I gotta say something. I was absolutely shocked at something when I watched this. Before the other night, if you asked me if I had seen this film, I would have bet you a $1,000,000 I had watched this film. It started, and, like, gee, I don't remember this whole vaudeville stuff.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And it's and I realized it's because I've seen so much of it and heard so much of it. I just always assumed I'd watched it. Really? I had never seen this film. I I take I hate you know, a lot of people don't hate the cliche, but take away my gay card because

Tony Maietta:
I have never

Brad Shreve:
seen this film. But I the reason why is I was absolutely certain I've seen it. And it wasn't like Gone with the Wind, which I I have never seen in one sitting. I have seen, I'm certain, all of Gone with the Wind if I piece it all together.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
I don't think that I probably thought that was true with this film, but, no, not even close.

Tony Maietta:
Wow. Not even close. So this was actually your virgin viewing of whatever happened to Baby Jane?

Brad Shreve:
Yes. And it absolutely sucked. I'm joking. I'm joking.

Tony Maietta:
I'm like, podcast over. Thank you for listening everybody. That was our shortest episode ever. Well, here you know, Baby Jane for me, you know, kind of like Bewitched was in the fabric of my childhood, and Baby Jane Baby Jane has been in the fabric of my childhood as a gay man. Yes, but it was more than that. You know, Baby Jane was a big movie when I was in college. We would watch Baby Jane and laugh and laugh and laugh. Now I did go to performing arts college, so maybe that's something to do with it.

Tony Maietta:
But to me, it's kind of like the Chinatown of Grand Dame Gagnon. You know, it's it's truly the mountaintop. Baby Jane, it's epic performances, legendary stories. You know, you have what Andrew Sarris called the screen's ultimate masochist, Joan Crawford, meeting the screen's ultimate sadist, Bette Davis, in this clash of the titans. So you can also call this whatever happened to baby Jane, I e, clash of the Hollywood titans, because it is, and there are no survivors when this film is over. Should we talk a little bit about, the history and how how baby Jane came about and, before we get into the story and and or do would you rather give away would you rather talk about the plot first?

Brad Shreve:
Let me do the plot first. Okay. Those individuals like me who thought they saw it and will find their surprise they did not.

Tony Maietta:
And they didn't.

Brad Shreve:
This is a 1962 psychological horror thriller drama suspense. It's all the above. This was 62 years ago, which is hard to imagine. God. It's based on the 1960 novel of the same name, and I he was one of the cowriters of the film as well. Mhmm. It was produced and directed by Robert Aldrich. Now Aldrich is known for doing a lot of they look to me like b movie horror films because most of them I never heard of, but I could be wrong.

Brad Shreve:
I'm just making that assumption.

Tony Maietta:
Well, he was a big macho. He was a macho director, Aldrich. And He directed the dirty dozen. He directed kiss me deadly. I mean, so the fact that he had this also this side gig of doing these

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
These hagsploitation, which is the unflattering name they gave to these types of films as a sideline is kind of really interesting.

Brad Shreve:
He did hush-hush sweet Charlotte with Bette, but then he also did as you the Dirty Dozen, you said he did the Yes. Longest yard. He did the choir boys. Talk about testosterone films.

Tony Maietta:
Well, but think about it for a minute. It ain't that much different to deal with Lee Marvin and Ernest Borgnine than it is to deal with Joan Crawford and Bette Davis. I mean, you're going into a real battle regardless.

Brad Shreve:
That is true. So in addition to them, it stars King Tut himself, Victor Bueno

Tony Maietta:
Film debut.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Marjorie Bennett, Mady Norman, and Anna Lee, and some additional cast members as well. And the way this story begins, it begins in vaudeville of 1917. And Bette Davis, her younger self is baby Jane Hudson, and she is a song and dance star on the vaudeville circuit. I can't for the life of me figure out how because she's so by the time the thing it was so sugary sweet. Everybody in the theater, their teeth must have fallen out of their mouth. She also happens to be a spoiled, nasty, rotten brat

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Whose father cuddles cuddles her mainly for the money. And her sister, Blanche, the younger Joan Crawford, is kind of to the wayside. Now what is Blanche's downfall is her mother makes her promise that when she finally gets big someday, she will never treat her sister the way her sister treated

Tony Maietta:
her. I won't forget. You bet I won't forget. And she does not that little girl's fantastic. She looks like a mini Joan Crawford. She really does.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Yeah. She actually reminded me of a brunette, the bad seed girl.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah. Very Rodeo.

Brad Shreve:
The way she the way she the look on her face watching her sister on stage. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we move forward, 20 years. It's 19 thirties, and now Blanche is a big movie star. And because of her promise to her mother, she helps Jane in Hollywood. She has enough clout, and Jane is pretty much starring in b movies, and they don't she's not good at all. The the one film they show, they're scrapping the film because it was so bad.

Tony Maietta:
Which were at a show actual Bette Davis, Joan Crawford films.

Brad Shreve:
I figured those were old Yes. That I figured they were clips that probably would hit the floor.

Tony Maietta:
Well, there were 2 of Bette Davis' most disliked films, x lady and parachute jumper, which she detested. So she's, like, show those. And they were one of Joan Crawford's biggest hits, Sadie McKee, which Joan loved. So this show Very nice. Anyway, interrupted you. So Go ahead.

Brad Shreve:
So Blanche and Jane are driving home, and there is a car accident, and Blanche ends up in a wheelchair. And because of her wheelchair, she is confined to her home. For some reason, in a wheelchair, they didn't give her a bedroom downstairs, so she's actually literally confined her bedroom.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
And Jane has to take care of her. She's controlling. Her resentment grows as the story grows, and that controlling turns into torture, plain and simple torture.

Tony Maietta:
Plain and simple torture.

Brad Shreve:
So this is it's a difficult film.

Tony Maietta:
It is. It is. It's disturbing.

Brad Shreve:
And that's that's basically the story, and then we learn more about the relationship and maybe what really goes on.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is no. It's disturbing. You know, we it has it's such you know, it's like I said, the Chinatown of camp now that it's hard to remember, this was intended as a shocker. I mean, this was not long after Psycho. So and that's part of the genesis of this whole thing. You know? Joan Crawford for everything we know about Joan Crawford, Joan Crawford could read movie trends.

Tony Maietta:
Joan Crawford there's a reason why she kept her career going from the silent films all the way up into the seventies because she knew what audiences wanted. She was very attuned to it. She would shift her image. She would change her screen persona to fit the times. And she was looking for a film. She'd been looking for a film to do with Bette Davis, which is kind of interesting, since the forties. They were she wanted to do a version of the Ethan Frome with Bette in the forties when they were both at Warner Brothers, but it never happened because she wanted Bette to play the old the unattractive one, of course. But, anyway, that I'm off point here.

Tony Maietta:
So when so Bette, Joan had worked with Robert Aldrich in Autumn Leaves in 1955, and she kept saying they she wanted to work together. She wanted to work with him again, but she wanted to do a project with Bette. And that's when the novel, Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, written by Henry Farrell, was published in 1960. Now there's a couple stories about how it came to Joan's attention. Some people say Joan did it. Some people said that Aldrich saw it. The version that I think is most which is is most verifiable is that it came to Aldrich's attention. His secretary sent it to him, and he thought, here's the film for Joan Crawford and Bette Davis.

Tony Maietta:
So he contacted Joan. They had lunch. She agreed. And it is true, and this is the legend, that Bette that Joan went to see Bette. Bette was on Broadway very unhappily performing in the Night of the Iguana, and she did come to the theater and meet with Bette and say, I have a project for us. Left the book with Bette. Bette looked at it, and Bette apparently called Aldrich and said I have two questions for you. First of all, what part do I play? He said, baby Jane.

Tony Maietta:
And she said, of course, that's good. 2nd question, did you ever fuck Joan Crawford? Now the reason she asked this was not because she gave a shit about Joan Crawford's personal sex life, but because she knew Joan had a tendency to sleep with her directors and thereby get them on her side, which, you know, so did Bette, p s. So, I mean, this is just the way the machinations of this happened. So Bette agreed to do it, and that's how it happened, but they couldn't get financing for it. They went Aldrich took this to studio after studio after studio. And very famously, he heard from one executive, those 2 old broads, I wouldn't give you a dime. Wow. They finally have you heard these stories about, how difficult it was to get financing for the film, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
No. It doesn't surprise me because this is a it's a really difficult film. And I can see why having these what I presume I you can tell me if there's other reasons, but to have these women that were 2 huge stars as they're getting older to put them in this horror film.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yeah. That was it. It wasn't the subject matter because Psycho was a huge hit. Yes. So this was definitely, as I said before, this was definitely a a a a the potential was huge here. It was the fact that they were these 2 old broads. In fact, one producer said to Aldrich, I'll make this for I'll give you the money for this if you cast 2 younger actresses. So, I mean, this is a real thing.

Tony Maietta:
And just to put this into perspective here. I just wanna put this into perspective. In 1962, Bette Davis was 54 years old. Alright. Just stop for a minute there. Okay? 54. Joan was either 55 or 62. We're not really sure.

Brad Shreve:
I saw 57. So who the hell do

Tony Maietta:
you mean? Well, Joan Crawford's birth date changed back and forth. Bette Davis swore she was born in 1900 if she was born in day, but I don't think she was quite that much older. So, yes, Joan was either but they were in their mid fifties. That's the best way to say it. So when you think about that, when when Jessica Lange and Susan Sarandon played them in Feud, they're in their seventies. Okay? These women were in their mid fifties, and they were being referred to as old broads. So just think about that for a minute. But they finally got financing from an independent company called 7 Arts, but it was minuscule.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, we're talking, like, the the lowest of low budgets. $800,000, I believe, was somewhere around $800,000 was the budget for this. So this was going to be a very quick shoot. And they negotiated their salaries, and I love this. This is what I really love about Joan Crawford. And I said she's very she was a very astute businesswoman. You know, she wasn't she Pepsi Cola, you know, that's not a myth. She was the face of Pepsi for years after Albert Steele died too.

Brad Shreve:
And and I my my understanding is that she insisted Pepsi machines be put on the studio.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah. That's true. Yeah. And Bob Aldrich liked Coke, and there was all those battles about that. Yeah. But so Bette didn't really think this movie had a lot of potential, so she insisted on $60,000 plus 10% of the net profits over 850,000, which was the budget. Joan said, that's okay. Go ahead, Bette.

Tony Maietta:
Dear Bette. That's alright, dear Bette. I'll take 30,015% of the net profits over $840,000. Well, baby Jane grossed almost $10,000,000. So who do you think came out with a bigger paycheck? Joan Crawford made over a1000000 dollars. And, you know, there was a lot of publicity about Elizabeth Taylor being the first actress to get a $1,000,000 for one role in 1963 for Cleopatra, but, uh-uh, it was Joan Crawford. It was Joan Crawford. I love that.

Tony Maietta:
Year before. I love that Joan was that smart and that farsighted, and it just shows you what a incredibly astute businesswoman she was. But this was still a cheapie. It was made in 34 days. So there was no time for feuding. There was no time for arguing. And that's what these women always said. There was no time because we had to show up, know our lines, be on time, and make this thing work, and they did.

Tony Maietta:
At such a low budget, they had no choice.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, you and I get excited when we get messages and emails and texts from listeners that tell us how much they enjoy the show.

Tony Maietta:
We do.

Brad Shreve:
But, you know, I think we should push it a little bit and ask them to go a little bit further.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, challenge.

Brad Shreve:
If you enjoy this show, let others know. 5 stars are great. Whatever you wanna give except 1 star. If if you have 1 star, say, you know, that show is not for me and move on.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. You don't need to don't give us 1 star. Be kind just say, no. Not for me. Just skip it. Or tell your friends. That's the best way too. Right? Tell your friends, hey.

Tony Maietta:
I have this great fun podcast with these 2 kooky guys who talk about movies and TV. We run the gamut. We have everything.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. We're all over the place.

Tony Maietta:
We're all over the place is a better way to put it.

Brad Shreve:
But in a good way. So do it right now before you forget. Well, if you think about there were I can picture 1, 2, 3, 4 sets for the most part. There was the the main hallway. Right. There was the kitchen. There was the bedroom where Joan was all the all the time, and then there was, Victor Bueno and his mother's apartment. Right.

Brad Shreve:
And other than that, I know that they filmed Bette driving around the city. They Yeah. They didn't even use the screen in the back. She literally was No.

Tony Maietta:
They literally

Brad Shreve:
I heard that her cameraman was sitting on the hood or something

Tony Maietta:
like that. The camera to the hood, and she drove around Hollywood. Yeah. And it wasn't like I mean, it wasn't they were at producer studio, which was kind of a ramshackle studio that Warner Brothers used for its westerns. Oh, I should say that once 7 Arts came up with the financing, Warner Brothers agreed to distribute the film. So they were back at Warner Brothers, their alma mater. But they were filming over on producer studio while a Rosalind Russell, their contemporary, was filming the multimillion dollar gypsy at the big studio. So I don't think that didn't irk Bette more than a little bit.

Tony Maietta:
So anyway, yes. So they shot in 34 days, all around Hollywood too. The house still standing today is in the area Largemont area in Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:
I knew that's where that was. I thought that looks I know that area. I know that area. I couldn't remember the name.

Tony Maietta:
You can go there today. They sold it recently, and you could have toured it.

Brad Shreve:
All the homes in that area look the same.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Beautiful. She goes the the newspaper she goes to is in Hollywood. It's all shot in that area in 34 days. Incredible. But they did it, and they only went 2 days over over schedule. So, no, these women weren't fighting. These women weren't, you know, Bette Joan wasn't strapping weights to her body to make Bette's back go out.

Tony Maietta:
And, you know, they weren't doing these tricks to each other to screw because they knew they had to get down to business, and they were very professional in that respect. And that's how they able to they were able to tell me. They did, of course, go to Malibu to film the final scene, on the beach. That was their big location shoot for this film was in Malibu.

Brad Shreve:
I saw something that said it was Santa Monica. I'm like, no. Santa Monica has big beaches. That is that has to be Malibu because

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. It was Malibu. The beach was very small. They shot some in the studio too. Yeah. They shot some the studio. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
You could tell the studio shots. Yeah. And it focused on the 2 of them.

Tony Maietta:
But, I mean, it's incredible to think that that, you know, nobody saw the potential for this film in Hollywood except for Joan Crawford and Robert Aldrich and Bette Davis to a certain extent. And it it became such a huge hit that it did create a whole new genre of film. You know, we just said it. Hagsploitation is the ungenerous word for it. Grand Dame Guignol is another word for it. It was basically these old movie stars doing horror films. You know? They all and they practically all of them did it up except for one notable exception. Can you imagine who that one notable exception was, Brad, from that era that didn't do this?

Brad Shreve:
I don't know.

Tony Maietta:
You might. You you know who she is. A little, a little actress called Katharine Hepburn. There was no, like, Katharine Hepburn was gonna do her.

Brad Shreve:
No. No. No. No. No.

Tony Maietta:
She didn't need to. She was doing, Eugene O'Neil. Long day's journey into night. She didn't need to go and do a straight jacket like Joan did. Lady in the cage, the night walker, like like, Barbara Stanwyck did. So they all ended up doing it. It's a cycle that actually ran out by the seventies, and really none of them to a tee. Hash-hush, sweet Charlotte's pretty good, but none of them were as good as Baby Jane.

Brad Shreve:
It's a it's a lot of fun. It is campy.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Well, it's a black comedy. People also don't realize that too. They it's a it was intentionally funny. Things were intentionally funny in this. People think it's just camp, but it was a it's a camp. It is camp. It has become camp mostly because of Bette Davis' performance and because every drag queen in the world has has done her at one point or another.

Tony Maietta:
But it's also it was intended as a black comedy. There are touches of humor in it that people, I think, don't don't realize. They think it's just this campy, trashy film, and it's not. It's kinda there's some moments of real fun, real humor.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. This is as far as humor and horror go, it's not like, I can't think of the name of the zombie movie, the guy that played Scottie in Star Trek. It was really popular. It was zombies, and there was a lot of humor in it. And it was kinda gruesome here and there.

Tony Maietta:
Well, you know, I don't know horror, but not Night of the Living Dead, Day

Brad Shreve:
of the Dead. This this was a more recent. It's a kind of a farce on, the zombie movies or a spoof on the zombie movies.

Tony Maietta:
Okay. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
That still has some good zombie stuff in it. Mhmm. It's not like that. This is a difficult movie. It's it's very hard to watch. You'll cringe. It's painful. But like you said, there is humor at the same time.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
That takes great skill in my opinion.

Tony Maietta:
Incredible skill. Incredible skill. And these were incredibly skilled technicians to a t. You know, this there's there's a reason why this film has lasted 62 years and will continue to last on and on and on. These people were so adept at what they did. You know, the stories about it, the making of it, again, you can watch a miniseries about it if you're really concerned, but some of the stuff that they did get right, Bette was very, very here's the thing about Baby Jane and here's the thing about the character of Baby Jane that's so important is that Bette Davis created she's so iconic now. It's hard to believe Bette Davis invented this. Okay? She wasn't watching Jinx Monsoon or one of these people on Drag Race.

Tony Maietta:
This came out of Bette Davis' mind, this character. This came out of the costume she wore. Bette Davis said, she created baby Jane's walk as a character trait. Bette Davis had a very kinetic, very fast walk. Watch all about Eve. Watch any Bette Davis movie. She walks completely differently in baby Jane. She's slow.

Tony Maietta:
She drags her feet. She it all goes with the slovenliness, the laziness, the alcoholism of Baby Jane. The wigs, the makeup, Bette Davis said she looked she viewed Jane as a woman who never washed her face. She just put on layer after layer after layer of makeup. This is some real thought going into this character, and we laugh at it today because we think it's so campy. But when you think about it, these were all decisions Bette Davis made, Very distinct decisions. Same thing with Joan Crawford, less so. And we think of Bette Davis as very campy in this because of these choices, but she invented them.

Tony Maietta:
She invented these choices, and they were so over the top as baby Jane is that they became camp. And her makeup was great. In fact, her daughter, when she first saw

Brad Shreve:
her, said, mom, you've gone too far.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. She did. But for all the campiness, for all the scenery chewing, for all the over the top, there are there are moments of real quiet in Bette Davis's performance. I think one of my favorite scenes is after she dumps Elvira's body in the back of oh, by the spoiler alerts. Do we do spoiler alerts anymore? I don't even remember anymore.

Brad Shreve:
I I gave up.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I think so. Never. So, yes, there's a murder. It's the how it's the maid. It's and Bette Davis dumps her body in the back of her of her car, and that's when she's caught by her neighbor, that nosy missus Bates played by Anna Lee. And Bette Davis' face when she's caught, and that whole scene Bette Davis is very quiet and very she's it's almost like she's had a night where she's cried and cried and cried and then she's now calmed down and she's talking because she has that sense in her voice. She's drained Because she just realizes she's committed murder.

Tony Maietta:
Baby Jane didn't start out as a murderers. You know, she wasn't Norman Bates. This developed, and she's horrified by what she just did. So there's she's still a little bit in reality at this point. Bette Davis is so quiet and so nuanced in that scene. You have to watch it because she has such a reputation of being over the top in this movie. There there are moments. There are such details in her performance.

Tony Maietta:
The way she looks at people. The way she focuses on one particular part of a person or gives them the up and down. You can see it all. And so it's a shame that because this move this performance has become such camp that we miss those incredible nuances that Bette Davis created in this character.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. It's very clear when it starts out that she is just a horrible sister. And then you very quickly see in how she transitions to a cruel woman. Yeah. Then it transitions to a point after the murder that she is a horrible, paranoid woman who then starts to become so fearful she wants her sister's help after all that she's done to her. It's very clear. You know, I I love dark movies, and I love comedies. I think 2 they're 2 of the hardest to write and make.

Brad Shreve:
So when you have a black comedy like this, if they knock it out of the

Tony Maietta:
park like this one, I love it. Well yeah. And she really points a portrait of a woman losing her mind. Yes. She's we are watching this woman lose her mind. Her grasp on reality is becoming lighter and lighter and lighter. Until the very end, she is literally in her mind, she is literally a little girl again, which is give it's just what gives that scene the last scene at the beach such pathos because she's a little girl again, and we'll of course, we'll talk about that. But I also wanna talk about Joan because it's important to point Joan's performance.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. You know, Joan, there was no way Joan was going to play Baby Jane. There's just no way. Maybe she could've done it, but it would never have been as effective. And she knew she'd never get Bette in the movie, and she really wanted to make this movie with Bette because she knew it would be a box office blockbuster somewhere in the back of her mind. Joan's performance is the eye of the storm. If you look at Bette as the storm, Joan's performance is the eye of the storm. And Bette's performance would never be as effective as it is if you didn't have that calming center, which is Joan.

Tony Maietta:
And Joan wasn't, like, being she wasn't being altruistic or she wasn't being a martyr here, because think about it. She's playing a former glamour girl. Hello, Joan Crawford. She was former glamour girl. Makes sense. And she was in a wheelchair, so she knew she'd get the audience sympathy. And, you know, what happened very frequently and still happens today to to actors who have play a character who has some kind of a handicap or some kind of a challenge, mental and physical, they win Oscars. So don't think Joan wasn't thinking that.

Tony Maietta:
She's like, I'm in a wheelchair. I might just grab that second Oscar. Of course, Bette was thinking the same thing. Neither one of them got it. So Joan is just as important to this story and the success, and Joan's performance is just as important to Bette's performance as Bette's performance was itself. And I think it's important to point that out, because Joan always gets short short shrift. Is that a word? She always gets passed over when you talk about this movie, because Bette Davis is so galvanizing in a performance.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. I don't know if Bette had more screen time or if it just seems that way because so many of Joan's scenes were by herself. They were solo scenes. But Yes. Yeah. Bette did a tremendous job. Joan, what really impressed me about her is there was so much in just her facial expressions.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Well, you know, the woman the woman started in silent movies, so she knew how to use her face.

Brad Shreve:
It showed. I mean, it really showed. There there was so much pain and so much angst and fear in her face. She had every emotion there was

Tony Maietta:
Yes. The

Brad Shreve:
in there. Even moments of sympathy.

Tony Maietta:
The sweating. Alright. The sweating. You know? She's also I'm not gonna go on a sudden fear tangent, but sudden fear is, another one of Joan Crawford's incredible performances. And in that one, she's in a similar situation and when she's finding out someone's trying to kill her, her husband, actually. And that's that same nobody could sweat like Joan Crawford. Glamorously, but still she would still sweat. And, you know, speaking of glamour, Joan did have a real problem letting go of a lot of the trappings of her glamour.

Tony Maietta:
Now this film was shot by Ernest Haller, legendary cinematographer Ernest Haller, who had worked with Bette and Joan, both of them back at Warner Brothers. In fact, they used to not really argue over him, but they used to grapple to see who would shoot who they could get Ernie for for their films. Bette usually won because, you know, Bette was the 5th Warner Brother. So she ran that place. But, anyway, he lights them so harshly. He films them so harshly. He said they would have killed me if I'd filmed them like this 20 years ago at Warner Brothers. But it was 20 years ago.

Tony Maietta:
You know, he he drives that point home. So Joan's upset because not only does she have to look like this with this harsh lighting, she wanted to hold on to some of the vestiges of her glamour. She wanted to wear a shorts a shorter skirt, and the costume designer, said, no. You can't. She's been in a wheelchair for decades. Her legs aren't gonna be she's not gonna be showing off your legs, Joan. She wouldn't one thing she would not let go of were her falsies. This is true.

Tony Maietta:
She would not let go of her falsies. And there's all kinds of stories about her lying on the beach and Bette saying, you know, when she would have to fall and her saying, I feel like I landed on 2 footballs. One one person quoted this Bette is saying that dame has a different falsie for the day of the week. You never know what size falsie that broad's gonna wear. She goes, I keep running into them like the goddamn Hollywood Hills. Whether those true stories are true or not, doesn't matter. The point is is that Joan wouldn't let go of the falsies, and she had to hold on to that one bit of glamour because she was Joan Crawford. So give her a break for Christ's sake.

Brad Shreve:
Now you you brought the cinematography, so let me use this as a point to give the rundown on the film, the stats.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I love that.

Brad Shreve:
Okay. First, I wanna talk about the movies that came out this year, and I'm gonna go through probably a larger list than normal because it's it was quite an impressive year. I will say I like It I saw a lot of bad films, but I think that's every year.

Tony Maietta:
Many many historians feel that 1962 was Hollywood's greatest year. In fact, there's a fantastic book about that as opposed to 39 because of the number of tremendous films that came out in 62. But go ahead.

Brad Shreve:
So The Longest Day was the highest grossing film of 1962. Lawrence of Arabia won best picture. And then I'm picking movies that some aren't necessarily the best, but the ones that seem to have lasted the longest as far as in people's minds. You have The Miracle Worker. You have The Manchurian Candidate, and I think it is far superior to to the new one.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
I didn't even really watch all of the new one.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And if you wanna see Angela Lansbury in a world that will blow your mind, what we'll have to do a Manchurian Candidate because Oh, I

Tony Maietta:
would love to. That film. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
I'd love to do it. I love that film. Incredible. Got To Kill a Mockingbird, mutiny on the bounty. The music man, I have mixed feelings about that. And then we have gypsy. Mhmm. And as far as, you said the you said made, $9,000,000.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. And the budget was mixed, but I think you said 800,000. I'll go with that number because it's

Tony Maietta:
Between 8 and $900,000. It was under a1000000 is the best way to put it.

Brad Shreve:
Now people seem to like this film. I've never seen this on Rotten Tomatoes before or very rare. Mhmm. 91% of the critics love this film

Tony Maietta:
Wow.

Brad Shreve:
And 91, the exact same number, 91% of the audience love this film.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. You can't overstate what an impact this film made at the box office. What it did to these women's careers momentarily, that is, putting them back on top. Bette Davis ran a very famous ad in the paper not long after they she finished wrapping this film call and the title of it was situation wanted, and it was basically she was putting an a want ad for her services as an actress. She considered it tongue in cheek. She thought it was funny. She thought it would be it was just some fun publicity to do, because she was kinda pissed off that she's not getting good movie roles. That happened before this movie was released.

Tony Maietta:
She would never would have done enough if this movie was released, because this movie was a huge hit. And she milked it for everything it was worth. As I said, she was on the Andy Williams show singing the theme song, whatever happened to baby Jane. I mean, you know, and and she they she wrote this as long as she could, as far as she could for the rest of her life, basically. Let's talk we'll talk about the the Oscar love slash hate this film got, Brad, because that's another the Oscars of 1963. I mean, there are 4 films in 62, but they were given in 63 are a big part of this whole baby Jane legend. So let's talk a little bit about these Oscar nominations.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. This film won 1, 2, 3 it won 5 awards.

Tony Maietta:
No. It was nominated. It was nominated for 5.

Brad Shreve:
You were right. You were right. Excuse that. So as far as the Academy Awards go, Bette Davis was nominated, but Anne Bancroft, as we said earlier, got the miracle worker. Victor Buono, best supporting actor. He was beat out by Ed Begley, Ed Begley junior's father, Sweet Bird of Youth, which I am not familiar with that film film at all.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, it's wonderful. Geraldine Page, fantastic.

Brad Shreve:
It won best black and white cinematography, best costume design, black and white, and best sound. Those are all nominations.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Those are all nominations. So it's nominated for those. Baby Jane won one Oscar for best costume design, black and white. Because at that time, there was nominations.

Tony Maietta:
You could get the nomination for a black and white film and for a color film. But, yes, as Brad said, it was nominated for 5 Oscars. It won 1. Victor I think we should say Victor Buono. This was his first film. The part of Edwin, who is, who is what do you wanna call it? Baby he's this he's a mama's boy. He's a big dopey mama's boy who baby Jane hires to help her launch her comeback. Who would if you know who I am? I'm baby Jane Hudson, because she was a big vaudeville star.

Tony Maietta:
So he's this mama's boy who basically finds out, he's kind of the architect of the the end of the film. He finds out what Jane is doing to her sister. He leaves, which sends Bette Davis into a panic. He'll tell. He'll tell. He's going to tell. So she grabs Blanche who's near death, throws her in the back of that car, drives out to the Malibu beach where there at night, there the car is parked way over to the side, and then it becomes the next day. And the beach is crowded with people, and these two crazy loony women on a blanket in the middle of all this, you know, in the middle of the summertime.

Tony Maietta:
And that's where the film ends, and we find out the ultimate secret of whatever happened to Baby Jane. But before you tell that, Brad, I do wanna say that the funny thing about I found out about, the character of Edwin Flagg was originally going to be played by Peter Lawford. Oh, no. But Peter Lawford turned it down after he thought about it because he thought it would reflect badly on his current brother-in-law. And who was his current brother-in-law in 1962, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I think he might have been a president.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. He's like, I don't think John would appreciate this. So blame it on JFK. He didn't play Edwin Flagg. Victor Buono did. Got an Oscar nomination for for this incredible role, and then had an incredible career in Batman. Right? Who did he play in Batman? King Tut. King Tut.

Tony Maietta:
That's right.

Brad Shreve:
Not one of my favorite characters on Batman, but it was still a fun character. He pretty much stuck with maybe b, maybe c as a rule, horror and terror films.

Tony Maietta:
Right. Right. No. It's

Brad Shreve:
This is probably one of his best. He may have had some others, but, most of them, I I just like, yeah, that was kind of a cheesy movie. Not a very good scary movie.

Tony Maietta:
Like, they all did after But he

Brad Shreve:
had a good career doing that. I mean,

Tony Maietta:
he was busy. He was a busy actor.

Brad Shreve:
He'd be busy.

Tony Maietta:
So so tell the listeners who who has who who have not seen this film and don't care about spoiler alerts. What happens on Malibu Beach between a dying Blanche and a whacked out crazy baby Jane who now thinks she's a child again?

Brad Shreve:
So the maid's body is found that, Bette dumped, I don't know where it was, somewhere in the valley. So the cops are looking for her, and, of course, they're not at home. And Bette and Joan are on the beach. Mhmm. She took, her sister down to the beach. Now Blanche is knocked out, so it was quite a drag to get her from the car down the beach, but she did it. It was in the middle of the night, so she had plenty of time to do that.

Tony Maietta:
And she's dying, by the way. She's been starved to death by her sister. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Her sister has been starved. She's been drugged. She's been chained up. She had tape on her face. She has not had a good time lately. So she is lying on the beach still very drugged up and very weak. And they did she looked bad. Should they had her, her teeth all dried up or not?

Tony Maietta:
She did.

Brad Shreve:
She Her lips all dried up. It looked pretty good.

Tony Maietta:
She let her vanity go for that for that final shift. She did.

Brad Shreve:
She could barely talk, and she admits to her sister. Now the the story up to this point was that baby Jane was the one that caused the car accident.

Tony Maietta:
That Crippled Blanche.

Brad Shreve:
Blanche got the car to open up the gate to the house, and while she was doing that, baby Jane hit the gas and ran into her, and that's why Blanche wound up in a wheelchair. So now the twist at the end of the movie is baby Jane was drunk that night and doesn't remember anything, and Blanche admitted her that she had was angry because she had been humiliated by her sister, and she's the one that rammed the car into the gate to kill her sister. And in the process, she snapped her spine.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
So all those years that all those years that Bette thought she had crippled her sister, it did not happen.

Tony Maietta:
So the ultimate villain in this piece is Blanche. Because because she has let her sister believe for 30 years or more that she is the reason she's in the wheelchair. But you are, Blanche. You are in that chair. And she plays that guilt card on her sister. This is what has created baby Jane's dementia, her downfall, her alcoholism. She believes she's responsible for this accident that crippled her sister, but it's not true. A dying Blanche confesses, you weren't driving that night.

Tony Maietta:
You were too drunk. I was. And the look on Bette Davis's face, my god. I get chills thinking about it. And she says the famous line, you mean all this time we could have been friends. Yes. And she's now totally a child in her mind. Completely this is what makes this horror film.

Tony Maietta:
She's now totally in her mind a child. And all the it's funny because they talk about this in feud too, and I see it when I watch baby Jane. All the, for lack of a better term, horror flows from her face, washes away from her face, and she almost glows baby Jane, because the guilt is gone. She's been released Yes. By her dying sister.

Brad Shreve:
That's the funny thing. It wasn't rather than anger, she turned to relief. Relief. And then crazy.

Tony Maietta:
In back well, she's just she's lost it. It's over. It's done. Blanche is dead. Those are Blanche's last dying words. Blanche is dead. The police rush. They finally see these these old women on a blanket in the middle of Malibu Beach.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, maybe that's who we're looking for. They rush to them, but Jane is off entertaining the masses because she's a crowd has gathered around her, and she's in total baby Jane mode. She's a girl again on the vaudeville stage doing her dance for her public. And as she twirls and twirls, the camera pulls back. We see the police finding Blanche, and that's where the movie ends. So that twist is kind of like the my sister, my daughter, my sister, my daughter twist from Chinatown, I think. Because you realize, wow, Blanche is the real villain here. She's been making her sister believe this whole time she that she crippled her, and she didn't.

Tony Maietta:
And that's when she said, you bet I won't forget. At the very beginning, it all comes together. So it's a brilliant screenplay, a brilliant twist. One of the reasons I love this movie.

Brad Shreve:
I'm gonna correct the film historian on one thing.

Tony Maietta:
Okay.

Brad Shreve:
In the book, Farrell makes it clear, we don't know what happens to Blanche. Did she die on the beach or did she not? She's just lying there. Well And they did the same thing

Tony Maietta:
in the movie.

Brad Shreve:
She was inches from death, but you notice they never showed her die. I want her to live and deal with what she needs

Tony Maietta:
to live with. Everybody wants to believe that Blanche lives, but, I mean, come on.

Brad Shreve:
She was pretty close, but maybe somebody gave her a sip of water

Tony Maietta:
and rejuvenate damn

Brad Shreve:
close. She was close. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
So what happened so I just wanna quickly, sum up what happened in the Oscars of 60 3. And if you wanna know more, go online. Watch Feud if you want to in the stories. Basically, Bette Davis was nominated for best actress. Joan Crawford was not. Joan Crawford was a little upset about this. But unlike some of the stories and what Feud does, Joan did not campaign against Bette. She could not have campaigned against and tell people not to vote for Bette with Hedda Hopper.

Tony Maietta:
That's total bullshit. That's total Ryan Murphy fantasy. What she did do was contact the New York nominees and say, if you cannot attend the Oscar ceremony, I will accept for you. Now that was a pretty good odds. Think about these odds for a minute because the nominees were Geraldine Page. She was doing a play in New York. She wasn't gonna go. She was relieved.

Tony Maietta:
Anne Bancroft, same thing. She was doing Mother Courage in New York. She wasn't gonna go. Hepburn was nominated for Long Day's Journey. Hepburn never went to an Oscar ceremony that she was nominated for, so she wasn't gonna show up. So the only wild card was Lee Remick, and Lee Remick was such a dark horse. Nobody cared. So odds are that one of these actresses was going to win, and Joan was going to accept for them, and that's exactly what happened.

Tony Maietta:
Then Oscar the the nominees were named. The winner was announced Anne Bancroft, and Bette Davis basically saw her costar, her unnominated costar from Whatever Happened to Baby Jane upstage her literally, sweep by her on stage to accept the Oscar. So Joan was in in all the photos the next day. Joan is holding an Oscar that Bette Davis lost, and that's really when the feud began. Not really before. They really didn't give a shit about each other before. That's really when Bette got pissed off. And some of these incredible lines that have now become legendary, that Bette said about Joan began that night.

Tony Maietta:
You know the the famous one about, when when Joan Crawford died? Do you know that do you know that quote? When when Joan Crawford died, they contacted Bette Davis. And Bette Davis said, you should never say bad things about the dead. You should only say good. Joan is dead. Good. She also said, there may be a heaven, but if Joan Crawford is there, I'm not going. So, yes, she was pissed off, and she also carried on the story that Joan carried that Oscar clutch to her bosom for a year, which she didn't. She took it to Anne Bancroft, like, a month later.

Tony Maietta:
There's documentation. But it pissed Bette Davis off. So with reason, you know, with good reason. You really can't blame Bette. That was, the ultimate act of hubris on Joan Crawford's part, but she was upset. She wasn't nominated, and she kinda put this whole thing together. So you can understand it. So that's really the beginning of the feud, not this long drawn out thing that we're led to believe these 2 women.

Tony Maietta:
These 2 women weren't friends, but they worked too well together. And as Brad said, when we opened the show, she they were professionals. She showed up, and she knew her lines. There is another rumor

Brad Shreve:
Yes. That I wanna bring up. Catherine Cermak, who was Bette Davis' assistant.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
She wrote a book called miss d and me. Right. Now I gotta tell you, there's some stuff in there that's very suspect. A lot of people are questioning this book. But I do wanna bring up some things that she said. One thing, if you noticed in that clip, Bette Davis said that she had to win because she's an Aquarius.

Tony Maietta:
No. She's an Aries. She's an Aries.

Brad Shreve:
An Aries. I'm sure. Aries. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
As was Joan Crawford. When

Brad Shreve:
she oh, interesting. So Yeah. So when Catherine Cermak was interviewed by Bette to be her assistant, the very first question she asked according to Catherine was, what is your sign? And when Catherine said, I'm a Libra, Bette was very pleased. Now one of the rumors that she is saying is that the reason there was the battle between Joan and Bette is because Joan had a crush on Bette.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. There's that. Yes. Yes. Yes. I've heard that.

Brad Shreve:
And she said, but that wasn't gonna happen because miss Davis is a man's woman.

Tony Maietta:
Well, there are questions

Brad Shreve:
I don't know about that one.

Tony Maietta:
There are questions about Joan's sexuality. She was what you would call fluid, which,

Bette Davis Clip:
you

Tony Maietta:
know, good for you, Joan. You know, she was she was she had a very healthy sexual appetite. I don't think that is disputed. And there were there were, people have said, like, in the forties when they were both at Warner Brothers that Joan would send Bette flowers. She would send her gifts. And was that a crush, or was that just Joan Crawford being Joan Crawford? I mean, Bette Davis also said, you know, that bitch will write a thank you note for a thank you note. So it's that's just who Joan Crawford was. And Carol Burnett also she didn't say that.

Tony Maietta:
But Carol Burnett told a very funny story about Joan contacting her after she did her takeoff of Mildred Pierce on the Carol Burnett Show, writing her a lovely letter, and then Carol wrote Joan a thank you letter. And then Joan wrote a letter back to Carol as a thank you for the thank you. And so then Carol felt she had to respond, so it went back and forth. So, yes, that's just who Joan Crawford was. Fundamentally, they were very different women inside. But in very important ways, they were so much alike. And it is kind of a shame that all that time, they could have been friends.

Brad Shreve:
That is a shame. That is a shame.

Tony Maietta:
It is a shame.

Brad Shreve:
I wanna bring up 2 things. I normally don't get into goofs, but one jumped out of me. And when I saw it listed in IMDB, I was so excited. I'm like, oh, good. I'm glad I'm not the only one that caught that. K. Jane puts an ad in the newspaper saying that she is looking for an accompanist for an actress that wants to return or something of that nature.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
And the advertisement gave her name and a phone number. Mhmm. So when Victor Bueno, very awkward character, calls about the job, she says, be here, I don't know, at 4 PM. He says, okay. She hung up the phone, never mentioned the address, and he shows up at her house. And I don't usually notice it, but I thought, god, that's blaring. That's blaring. The other one is more of a funny one.

Brad Shreve:
Mhmm. Barbara Merrill, who you know is Bette Davis' daughter BD. She played the next BD. BD. Yes. She played the next door neighbor's daughter.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
She only had a couple of scenes.

Tony Maietta:
Thank god.

Brad Shreve:
I swear to god when she was talking, I thought for sure, because I didn't know who she was. I thought for sure, oh, this is Joanna Barnes who played the haughty girlfriend on Auntie Mame. Her voice was just like that. Oh, dawg.

Tony Maietta:
Except she was a put on, and Auntie Mame was a put on. That's the way BD Hyman talked.

Brad Shreve:
That is sad. It was annoying as hell.

Tony Maietta:
Here's what's sad. You're Bette Davis. Okay? You are disputably the greatest screen actress in the world. You've got more Oscar nominations than anybody. This was her tent. This is your daughter. Okay. She is so bad.

Tony Maietta:
Can you imagine how Bette Davis felt saying, maybe you should get married at 16 b d because you sure as hell ain't an actress. So ironically, Christina Crawford was also an actress. Something else they had in common. These women had so much in common if they just would've if they would've gotten past their egos, they really could've been friends. They really could've

Brad Shreve:
have been friends. Reminds me of a friend of mine, Eric Douglas, who most people have probably never heard of Eric. He was Michael Douglas's brother Mhmm. Kirk Douglas's son. And, let's just say he didn't make it. He died very sadly, but, let's just say I'm glad for Kirk that Michael did very well.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I think, you know, I don't wanna say it, but I think that's I think we've just kind of discussed whatever happened to baby Jane in an hour. How about that? Now that is an achievement. We didn't get an Oscar nomination, but we did it in under an hour. I'm very proud of us.

Brad Shreve:
We could've gone on and on and kept going, but I think we said it all.

Tony Maietta:
I think we said it all. Except one thing we haven't said. But you know what? I don't wanna say it, Brad. So let's not say goodbye. Let's just say or what?

Brad Shreve:
No. Let's say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
I'm sorry.