Unraveling “Rope”, with Special Guest Stephen Dolginoff!

Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian, Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
Being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, I'm glad we finally got around your Rope. I've been wanting to do this for a while.

Tony Maietta:
Have you really?

Brad Shreve:
I'm looking for yes. I have been. And I'm really looking forward to having Stephen Dolginoff on as our guest. But before I think we should make things interesting.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, okay.

Brad Shreve:
I don't really know Stephen that well, but he just a playwright, so I I'm certain we are of superior intellect. So I think we should have him come on early

Stephen Dolginoff:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And make him comfortable. Yeah. And then when he least expects it, we'll take a rope. And then and then oh, shit. I just had an orgasm.

Tony Maietta:
I don't know if I believe you or John Dahl when with that. I'm not sure who gives a more convincing performance. Well, I you know, I am. I'm very excited to welcome my friend Stephen onto the show. I mean, you know, what can we say about Stephen? But he, you know, he's well, I can say this about Stephen. He is an award winning playwright and composer of among other musicals, Thrill Me, which the story of Leopold and Loeb, you know. And here's the thing about when I first met Stephen and he was telling me about this, I had no idea. Okay.

Tony Maietta:
Thrill me has had over 200 productions in 25 countries and translated into 17 languages. Can you can you can you believe that? I mean, this thing is massive, and I was always so impressed with that. And not only is he not only did he write it. Okay. He played the role of Nathan Leopold off Broadway, you know, and in a story straight out of 42nd Street and not at all about Eve, 42nd Street, and he recorded the role on the original cast album. So, you know, it's amazing to me that this play of Stephens has been in print for close to 2 decades. Not only that, I think and he calls this his proudest achievement and as he should because I think it is too. He's the author of the recent book, Thrillmaker, which is an Amazon bestseller, which recounts his 30 year history of that musical.

Tony Maietta:
So Stephen has a lot to say about Leopold Loeb. Stephen has a lot to say about Thrill Me, and Stephen has a lot to say about Rope. So I think without further ado, Brad, we should bring him on to Going Hollywood. Welcome, Stephen.

Brad Shreve:
Welcome.

Steven Dogenoff:
Hi. Hi, guys. Hi, Tony. Hi, Brad. Thank you so much for having me. What a great introduction.

Brad Shreve:
Thank you. I'll say his I'll say your bio is way beyond not too shabby.

Steven Dogenoff:
Well, thank you very much.

Tony Maietta:
Did I read it Back at

Steven Dogenoff:
you, guys?

Tony Maietta:
Read it well? Did I read it like you wanted me to read it? You read

Steven Dogenoff:
it perfectly. I think you are you're superior for sure. You are very superior, Tony.

Tony Maietta:
I heard that.

Steven Dogenoff:
You know? You know how to do this. You should have a hard guess. Last night.

Tony Maietta:
We talked about that. But, no, I think that what we should mention too that we've been talking about Leopold and Loeb. We've been talking about. You know, we're talking about Rope today, which is from 1948, which is a Hitchcock film from 1948, but it is suggested based highly indicative of of an actual real life people, Leopold and Loeb, who did a thrill killing. This is the 100th anniversary of the of the, the crime of Leopold and Loeb.

Steven Dogenoff:
That's right. A 100 years ago this year.

Tony Maietta:
We didn't plan this. This just happened to happen now.

Brad Shreve:
Kismet.

Tony Maietta:
So I think It's amazing. So before we go into Leopold and Loeb, we're here to talk about the film Rope from 1948, Alfred Hitchcock.

Brad Shreve:
And knowing the background, I'm really interested to hear what Stephen has to say about this.

Tony Maietta:
I am too. It's got starring Farley Granger, John Dahl, and James Stewart. Bria, what was your first memory of of Rope, Stephen? When do you remember first seeing Rope, and how did it affect you?

Steven Dogenoff:
When I was in high school, it was around the time VHS tapes were invented. And I used to go to the this is before Blockbuster even. I used to go to this to the the VHS rental place, and I would get all kinds of mysteries and sometimes horror movies. And Hitchcock was one of my favorites, so I got all of them. And Rope was a pretty early movie of his that I that I remember renting. And so I saw it when I was in high school, and it was always intriguing to me that it was all on one set. And as I know you guys know, Hitchcock filmed it to look like it was all almost one continuous take, that he did little tricks, like zooming in on the back of someone and then zooming back out, and that was where the camera actually cut. And then there's a couple times when it actually cuts to somebody, but it was all in almost one room.

Steven Dogenoff:
It was all in real time, and it starts with a murder. So, you know, there's no who done it. You know who done it.

Tony Maietta:
Right after that.

Steven Dogenoff:
You know exactly what's gonna happen. The question is, how are they gonna get caught? And always fascinated me. It was always, you know, up there for me. It's not one of my favorite Hitchcocks. You know, I'm much more into psycho and Rear Window.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Steven Dogenoff:
But, I liked it from the beginning. And then when I ended up working on a piece about Leopold and Loeb, who are the inspiration for Rope, but Rope isn't really the Leopold and Loeb story. They're just the inspiration of the characters. I, I avoid it. I said, I don't wanna watch anything that has anything to do with them. So, for a while, Rope was, a no no in my house, but I've recently rediscovered it and enjoyed it and, and wrote about it in my book.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. Yeah. Something I found interesting with this. Tony, you and I, when we did Streetcar Named Desire, we got into discussion how some movies you can tell it was adapted from a play and some movies you can't. Streetcar was because most of it was a couple of sets. You could tell it was adapted. In this movie, I felt like I was watching a play that had been

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Well, that was plain

Brad Shreve:
and simple.

Tony Maietta:
That's what Hitchcock wanted to do. His daughter said that Yeah. He had a goal of he wanted to film a play. And when he finally split from Selznick in the late forties, incredibly frustrated, and created his own company, he said that's the first thing he wanted to do. He wanted to film a play, and that's really what he did. I mean, there's no ways around it. I mean, this really is in real time as you said, Stephen. All the tricks you the tricks, we see them now.

Tony Maietta:
I just wonder if 1948 audiences would have been so aware of them, of of the cuts Right. And how he tried to seamlessly film them, film them in. But I think James Jimmy Stewart said the the only thing that got rehearsal in this movie was the damn scenery because the scenery was all on wheels, and he had to pull walls out and move doorways to to kind of give this effect of a seamless flow of action. And when you look at it that way, it is pretty amazing that he was able to pull that off so effectively.

Steven Dogenoff:
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm Absolutely. And the and the actors probably rehearsed it like they were doing

Tony Maietta:
a

Steven Dogenoff:
play because they were doing you know, they had to do they they weren't doing short little takes. It was 10 minutes, you know, of knowing all that dialogue, all of their movements, dodging cameras, dodging scenery. And, there's all these fascinating things that Hitchcock did, like focusing on just a piece of furniture while you're hearing people talk and not seeing them. And when that happens, there's this gigantic backdrop in their in the windows in their beautiful apartment. And, there's maybe one that's daytime, one that's dusk, and one that's nighttime, and they have to somehow get out the old one and get on the new

Tony Maietta:
one amazing.

Steven Dogenoff:
While the camera isn't facing it and just get it there. It's really, really remarkable. And he didn't have to do it that way. I mean, he No. Could've filmed it like a regular movie even though it was sort of stage y and in one room. It's it's I wonder what made him think to do that, but it certainly adds to the suspense because you feel like you're there. Yeah. You feel like you're in that room with these 2 very strange guys.

Brad Shreve:
I agree with you. I think it worked a 100%.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Critics at that time and even Hitchcock himself disagrees with us. Yeah. They thought it was a failure. If you even Robert Redford or not Robert. He wishes he was Robert Redford. Even Roger Ebert

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
Said he agrees with Hitchcock. That was an experiment fail. I disagree a 100%. I think it worked really well.

Tony Maietta:
Here's what's interesting to me is he's taking on this huge technical challenge of trying to create this film that looks like it's one shot, and he's doing it in Technicolor. Yeah. This was not only his first Technicolor film. I don't know why he would do this for your your challenge you're kicking a pretty big challenge as it is, but you're gonna do it in Technicolor. And at this time, Technicolor cameras were like the sizes size of a refrigerator.

Steven Dogenoff:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, they were huge. So not only are you having to move sets and move doorways and get actors out of the way and go over cables and go under you're moving to these these things which are the size of refrigerators. So I think the actors are almost superfluous in this movie because the most interesting things are the technical things that he achieves.

Brad Shreve:
And that's actually what critics felt. They felt it distracted. I didn't feel that.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yeah. I don't think it distracted from it, but I would say that, you know, I don't think necessarily the actors, you know, quote, best takes were used. It was just as long as everything went smooth, that's what we're printing. So, you know, if if you did you know, as long as you hit your mark, it was gonna be, you know, it was gonna be usable. I think when we look at it today, we just see a good solid film, and we're not really aware of the it's not as aware of the gimmick as they were back then. And I agree with you, Brad. I think that it's not that it wasn't successful that worked. I mean, it it it's not like it was a disaster, but I think probably what the critics were owning in on was why? Why do it all like that? You know? Because you're right.

Steven Dogenoff:
Mhmm. You know, you have these refrigerator sized cameras. You have moving furniture and and quite an interesting story.

Tony Maietta:
Not only not only all these obstacles, but hello. It's about homosexuals. Absolutely. Let's throw that in the mix as well. Not only are you doing these technically astounding feats, the main the 2 main characters are gay. Now they

Brad Shreve:
Oh, come on. It was very subtle. You could hardly tell.

Tony Maietta:
Please. Please. And that's How would anybody know? They didn't even they couldn't even say homosexual. Arthur Laurent said they they said it. And they said it's a movie about it. The 2 characters are it, not homosexual, and they're gay. It's crazy.

Steven Dogenoff:
But you have to hand it to them because, you know, we hear all of this about the Hays office and and what you could say. It is so clear that there are a couple in this movie. It is not hidden

Tony Maietta:
at all. Bedroom. Yeah. There's one bedroom.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I didn't catch that. Hysterical.

Steven Dogenoff:
Well well, actually, I caught 2 things when I just recently watched it. They go out of their way for the, the character of Brandon when he's talking to the leading lady to sort of mention that he and that leading lady had once had a past romance.

Tony Maietta:
Right. I saw that.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yes. Yes. They do talk about the bedroom, but then a character gets a phone call, and the maid says, take it in the first bedroom Oh. Which to me is like to me, it's like, okay. There's the one thing that they had to put in, but that could mean there was a guest room.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
No. It's true. Yeah.

Steven Dogenoff:
But they they are they act like a couple. They talk about, oh, Brandon at one point says, well, Philip is gonna stay at my mom's house for a while. Like, your roommate wouldn't be staying at your mom's house. It was Yes. It was crazy. I mean, when you think that if the production code or the Hays office really was stringent, they could've made them brothers, I guess. You know? They they they could have.

Tony Maietta:
I don't know brothers. You know, if they I don't know brothers who look at each other that way. I don't know brothers who take off the other one's clothing that way.

Brad Shreve:
Right. Right.

Tony Maietta:
But you know Except for the Menendez

Steven Dogenoff:
brothers. That's well, oh my god. Ugh. Don't get me started. But, you know, that's what they could've done, something like that. But they really let almost everything fly. I mean, yeah, he takes off his gloves for the other guy, and they that champagne cork popping moment and, you know, and all of that. You know? And it's and they're treated like a couple by everyone.

Steven Dogenoff:
And it's and it's treated like nothing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's actually very progressive.

Tony Maietta:
Totally nonjudgmental.

Steven Dogenoff:
It's it's totally nonjudgmental. It's really fascinating. I don't know how anyone it's it's it's interesting to think of how audiences back then took it. Did they just think, well, these are 2 roommates, 2 best friends, or did everyone realize it? Because now you just can't watch it without knowing.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I no. I I think I think it was a mixture of both. I think the smart people got it. Mhmm. And I think the people who were oblivious were oblivious, and they just thought they were very good friends because they were also in addition to being homosexuals, they were also murderers. You know? Because we either had to be murdered or we had to be murderers in order to get past the production code in 1948. Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
And, actually, I wondered why they couldn't have gotten through the production code because they were homosexuals, and in the end, they turned out to be psycho killers.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
I thought maybe they could've got away with that. I asked

Tony Maietta:
probably that's the only reason. Tell us what it's about.

Brad Shreve:
It's a 1948 psychological thriller. Excellent example of a cat and mouse film directed by Alfred Hitchcock. It's based on the 1929 play by Patrick Hamilton, and I was really surprised to see that was adapted by Hume Cronin, who I never knew was anything but an actor. I didn't know he did behind the scenes stuff, and the screenplay was by Arthur Marantz. Starred John Dahl as Brandon Shaw, and his kinda sorta yes, we know it's his gay lover. Mhmm. Farley Granger as Philip Morgan. Also had James Stewart as Rupert, their onetime professor.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm gonna bring up there's a great other cast, but I am gonna bring up Dick Hogan who played David Bentley. And the reason I'm bringing up Dick Hogan is he his career is he's had several dozen films. Some of them were very small parts. Some of them were starring roles. I

Tony Maietta:
think than this one?

Brad Shreve:
This was his final film, and he was winning at at what? 30 seconds at most?

Tony Maietta:
He plays a corpse. It remind me of what it remind me of what Betty Davis

Brad Shreve:
We see him collapse before he as the second he dies. It reminds

Tony Maietta:
me of what Betty Davis said about one of her very first movies, The Menace. She goes, I play a corpse. I fall out of a closet. Now she got it wrong. That didn't happen, but it's just so funny. So his his claim to this is he plays a corpse. There you go. It's not not difficult.

Brad Shreve:
Last

Tony Maietta:
fall. Acting challenge. Acting challenge. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Speaking of him playing that corpse, I've got to just to show how quaint this era was. Here is the feedback from critic Mae Tinney with the Chicago Tribune when this film came out. She said, if mister Hitchcock's purpose in producing this macabre tale of murder was to shock and horrify, he has succeeded all too well. The opening scene is sickeningly graphic, establishing a fee feeling of revulsion has seldom left me during the entire film. My god. That is so tame by today's standard.

Steven Dogenoff:
That it's nothing. I mean, they have a Rope around his neck, and he's they're choking him, but that's not graph that's not

Tony Maietta:
all that graphics.

Steven Dogenoff:
Graph. Graphic in 1948?

Brad Shreve:
According to her, it was. I don't know what she'd been watching.

Steven Dogenoff:
Clearly I guess so.

Tony Maietta:
She hadn't been on Omaha Beach apparently, and she because my

Brad Shreve:
Well, she hadn't watched Bride of Frankenstein. We talked about how horrific that was.

Tony Maietta:
Hysterical. It's so graphic. I also love the fact you call him Arthur Laurent. He probably would have appreciated that brand. I always know him as Arthur Lorenz, but Barbara calls him Arthur Lorenz. But we we can go with we can go with your pronunciation. I like it a lot better of Arthur Lorenz. So yes.

Brad Shreve:
It's not Lorenz to me.

Tony Maietta:
He did write the screenplay. Yes. He did. And our for people who don't know

Brad Shreve:
I almost said d Lorenz.

Tony Maietta:
Arthur Lawrence also wrote a little musical called West Side Story. He wrote a musical called Stephen, and he wrote a film called The Way We Were, but we're not gonna talk about the way we were

Brad Shreve:
right now. And Arthur Lawrence was Oh, god. But Tony Yoda for hours.

Tony Maietta:
And Arthur Lawrence was, in fact, a homosexual, if you wanna use that word. He was gay, and you think that's probably one of the reasons why Hitchcock hired him was because he was gay. And also he had just worked on a film called the snake pit with the Olivia Olivia de Havilland, which got was getting some good buzz. So when Lawrence was was was basically cleaning up this play, What his task was to get it past the production code, and this is they did this quite a bit, was removing all of the my dear boys, because this is a British play. Ropes end was a British play. He removed all the my dear boys and all the the British language because in the an American mouth, my dear boy sounds very gay. He took them all out, and then he left the production, and the producer came back in and put all back put back in all the my dear boys into the script. So when it went to the PCA, Production Code Administration, they apparently, according to Arthur Lawrence, made big circles around the my dear boys and put homosexual out out out.

Tony Maietta:
So what they did was by having all those cuts, other things which are so much more obvious went right over the PCA's head. And they did this a lot. Hitchcock was very smart about this. They would throw in their, you know, their MacGuffins, if you will, to get the attention of the production code administration. So the real stuff that could really show that these 2 guys were homosexuals went right over the production code's head, which I love about that. I love it.

Steven Dogenoff:
It makes me wonder what did Hume Cronin do because it says that he did the adaptation, and then Arthur Laurent wrote the screenplay. Hume Cronin was, you know,

Brad Shreve:
as far

Steven Dogenoff:
as I know, straight as an arrow and married to Jessica Tandy. I did see incidentally off Broadway, a production of Rogue

Brad Shreve:
Oh.

Steven Dogenoff:
The the full British version. And, it starred Sam Trammell, who was later on True Blood, the series True Blood.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Steven Dogenoff:
He did a really good job. And it's it's very British. It's very, very British and much more eyebrow and much more intellectual. So I wonder if, for some reason, Hume, Cronin sort of Americanized the story, and then Lawrence wrote the screenplay.

Tony Maietta:
Hitchcock liked to do this. Hume wrote the treatment. Hume, Cronin wrote the treatment, basically. Uh-huh. And then he brought on Arthur Lorenz to write the screenplay, and Hitchcock liked to do that. According to Hume, Cronin, he would frequently have someone else write the adaption and then bring in a screenwriter because Arthur Laurent was a playwright. So to write this and I you know, you can't forget the fact that he was also gay. So and they knew that.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, they it wasn't common knowledge, but people knew. Remember, it's stupid. And I think that's another reason too why he brought in Arthur Laurent to do this.

Brad Shreve:
I think what happened is they got they had their Paul Lynn, Rip Taylor, Charles Nelson Reilly blinders on and purposely weren't seeing it.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yeah. I think so too. I mean well, yeah. I mean, it was just over their yeah. It was over their heads. It went right some of these things went right over their heads. Also, casting hello. Casting 2 gay actors to play the main roles.

Tony Maietta:
Now originally I don't know if you saw this. Originally, Hitchcock went to Montgomery Clift as everybody did at this time, went to Montgomery Clift, and he was like, no. No. No. Staying away from that one.

Steven Dogenoff:
That was gonna hit too close to home. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. And I was with the Cary Grant who also said, staying away from that one, Hitch. And that's why we got a very, very miscast, in my opinion, James Stewart as Rupert. And John Dahl and Farley Granger who were both gay actors, Farley Grainger was pretty out. Am I right about that, Stephen? I mean, he was like, look.

Steven Dogenoff:
I believe so.

Tony Maietta:
I don't give a fuck what you think, which I love. James Dahl, I think, was probably a little more in the closet, at this time, but James Dahl had made a very great success in the corn is green. And Farley Jay Farley Grainger, was basically just making his name, in Hollywood when they were cast. So that was very brave of them to do this and play such too obvious, to us at least, homosexual characters.

Steven Dogenoff:
Exactly. But the thing was they could they had an out. They could they could say nowhere does it say there's nothing romantic. Nowhere does it say that they're a couple. It's just very obvious when you watch it, but they could say, no. They're just roommates. You crazy pervert. What are you looking? What are you seeing?

Brad Shreve:
You know? It's a thriller. What's wrong with you? You're sick.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yeah. Exactly. But, you know, it's, you know, and it was known that it was inspired by Leopold and Loeb. And Leopold and Loeb, as we're gonna talk about later, were in a relationship with each other. I mean, the the details were quite different. But so what wait. When you put Leopold and Loeb in, and while it was scandalous, people knew that there was something going on between the 2 of them. So I I I think it was pretty well known.

Steven Dogenoff:
I wanted to tell you guys not only did I get to meet Farley Granger.

Tony Maietta:
Oh.

Steven Dogenoff:
I also got to meet Jimmy Stewart, and forgot to tell you this, Tony. I met Arthur Laurents.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, yeah.

Steven Dogenoff:
Or Lawrence, whatever you wanna say. So

Brad Shreve:
Either way.

Steven Dogenoff:
You know, I got the the the I had the Rope, you know, transacted so to speak. And I I did I was able to speak very briefly with Barley Grainger about Roque. He was doing a a book signing, but at a very small venue where, you know, it was very intimate, so there weren't a lot of people by design. And he talked about his career, and then everyone was able to have, you know, a few moments with him. And I had just played basically the same role that he played in Rope. I played Nathan Leopold. He played a character based on him. And, you know, and I told him that that's what I had recently done, and I wrote a whole play about the the story.

Steven Dogenoff:
And he just he was quite old, and he just he said something like, you know, well, you know, that that was a great role. And, you know, he sort of gave me a smile. So that was very thrilling. James Stewart, we didn't talk about Rope because that was awesome at a book signing where he had written a book of poetry, and he shook my hand and said, hello. I'm Jimmy Stewart. And I said, I know. And then, so we didn't get to talk about Rope. And then Arthur Lawrence, I went and saw him speak, and he did talk about Rope at that speech.

Steven Dogenoff:
And I introduced myself briefly at the end, and god, was he mean. That's what you know? He was like That's

Tony Maietta:
unfortunately the the standard the standard line about Lawrence was that he was just a not a nice guy. And I'm

Steven Dogenoff:
like, and I was probably so I was probably 22 or 23. You know? You're lucky that a young person cared about you then.

Tony Maietta:
But Yeah.

Steven Dogenoff:
But anyway but a very talented man, though.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, you and I get excited when we get messages and emails and texts from listeners that tell us how much they enjoy the show.

Tony Maietta:
We do. But, you know,

Brad Shreve:
I think we should push it a little bit and ask them to go a little bit further.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, challenge.

Brad Shreve:
If you enjoy this show, let others know. Five stars are great. Whatever you wanna give except 1 star. If if you have one star, say, you know, that show is not for me and move on.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. You don't need to don't give us 1 star. Be kind. Just say, no. Not for me. Just skip it. Or tell your friends. That's the best way too.

Tony Maietta:
Right? Tell your friends, hey, I have this great fun podcast with these 2 kooky guys who talk about movies and TV. We run the gamut. We have everything.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. We're all over the place.

Tony Maietta:
We're all over the place is a better way to put it.

Brad Shreve:
But in a good way. So do it right now before you forget. I I think it's a good time, Stephen, to for us to delve into the backstory, and then we can talk about how the movie changed. I do wanna say one thing because, Tony, you said that Jimmy Stewart was poorly cast. And I used to agree with you because I know in the I I believe in the play I've heard that Parley Grange's character, it was alluded to that he had had an affair with Jimmy Stewart's character.

Tony Maietta:
John Dahl's character.

Brad Shreve:
John Dahl yeah. John Dahl. I'm sorry. You're correct. John Dahl's character.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Brandon. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
I used to think so. But, you know, I watched it. As far as being a kind of a a weird philosopher kind of thing. I think he did a really good job. I think he he had this superior not in the same way that John Dahl did, but this kind of superiority to himself, the way he thought, the way he he's he comes across with those little snippy lines and maybe, obviously, he didn't write them, but he I think he played them well.

Tony Maietta:
I think he's terribly miscast. I think in the play, it's more of an Oscar Wilde type character.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. And I just keep thinking, wouldn't it have been great if we had James Mason playing this part?

Brad Shreve:
Oh, that would be fabulous.

Tony Maietta:
If we had Yes. Clifton Webb play this part. Because that's really well, maybe not Clifton Webb. He's a little too old. But that's really so Jimmy Stewart trying to be, like, really girl? I just I'm sorry. He seems so uncomfortable to me. The only when when he does make some some he kinda comes back a little bit, saves face a little bit is when he comes back, and he's now the detective. Because jam Jamie Stewart could do that.

Tony Maietta:
He could be the detective. But trying to be this flippant, kinda sarcastic, I don't I'm not behind it. I'm just

Brad Shreve:
Oh, he wants to I think James Mason would have been way better. I'm glad you brought that up. He just didn't do as bad as I remember.

Steven Dogenoff:
The interesting thing is I I think Jimmy Stewart comes across at least authoritative, but what's really funny is there's the scene in the movie where he and and missus Atwater are talking about movies, and she says she mentions James Mason, Errol Flynn, Cary Grant. She's talking about Yeah. All of Jimmy Stewart's contemporaries who might have been better in the movie, and it's kind of this exact early example

Tony Maietta:
than he was.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yes. Very early example of of meta. You know?

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Exactly. Well, before we I just wanna say one more thing about Jimmy Stewart, and then we can move on. But, you know, in Jimmy Stewart's to his credit, this was a very tricky time in his career. He had just come back from the war. He was a war hero. We know that. He had made It's a Wonderful Life, and it didn't do well.

Tony Maietta:
We all know we all look at it now as this epic film. We know that, but it did not do well initially. So Jimmy Stewart was in a very precarious place in his career. He had not yet become the fifties Jimmy Stewart we know from from vertigo and from rear window. So he was trying to find regain his footing. So I gotta give him a little credit for being brave enough to take this on even though I think he's terribly miscast.

Brad Shreve:
And, actually, I have a question on that because I know movies that Jimmy has been in, but I'm not really familiar how his career progressed. Given that this was his first movie after the war that actually well, David didn't Stephen do great.

Tony Maietta:
It wasn't his first. It wasn't his first movie. It's one of the first.

Brad Shreve:
Given that he was in so many given that he was in so many Hitchcock films, did help did Hitchcock help make his career?

Tony Maietta:
Don't use yeah. That he definitely gave Jimmy his second the second run of his career with Rear Window and Vertigo, and he gave him a new persona, basically, as he, you know, as he also added to Cary Grant's persona. But, yeah, at this point, Jimmy Stewart was still just trying to find his footing, because he was no longer he wasn't, you know, he wasn't young. Mister Smith goes to Washington anymore, but he wasn't quite yet at that point in his middle life where he could play the parts like he played in Rear Window and Vertigo. So this was a very precarious time for him. So I do give him credit for doing that.

Steven Dogenoff:
You know, it's interesting the way you mentioned how he's miscast. That might have been how they got away with the rest of it. Oh, yeah. I think so. Jimmy Stewart not coming across gay, not seeming like he would've had a little thing with the Brandon character

Tony Maietta:
Very smart.

Steven Dogenoff:
You know, it sort of deflected it. Whereas if they had gone with someone like James Mason, it just might have been way too much. Maybe maybe they knew what they were doing. Too much. You know?

Tony Maietta:
Well, that's what we said about when when Brad and I talked over breakfast at Tiffany's. We're like, how do you basically film a a a story about a hooker? Well, you get Audrey Hepburn to play the hooker. Right. And then suddenly, it's all kind of made pretty, and it's all kind of diffused. Yes. Absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
Well, it's especially I don't know how much people knew about Jimmy's personal life back then, but knowing what a staunch conservative he is, that to watch that film, he just see that's what made me really feel like he was out of place.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Well, Arthur Laurent said he had no sex. He said, well, he wasn't straight. He wasn't gay. There's no sex with Jimmy Stewart. He's Jimmy Stewart. So but that's, you know, that's That

Brad Shreve:
works for me.

Tony Maietta:
Arthur Lawrence. Arthur Lawrence. So, Brad Brad, now we've been talking for a half an hour about this film. What the hell is it about?

Brad Shreve:
I don't know.

Steven Dogenoff:
It's about an hour and 20 minutes.

Tony Maietta:
That's what it is. Yeah. It is about an hour and 20 minutes.

Brad Shreve:
What this film is is we have John Dahl and Farley Granger as 2 buddies, it's a little more than buddies, who Farley Granger is kind of the the very dominant of the the 2, the very stronger characters.

Tony Maietta:
I'm sorry. John Dallas. John Dallas.

Brad Shreve:
I I keep did I say Farley Granger? Yeah. I think it's I really like Farley Granger.

Tony Maietta:
Well, join the club.

Brad Shreve:
John John Dallas did nothing for me, so I think that's probably why I keep going to Farley. John Dahl's character is the leader in all this. He's the he's the one that's a lot more twisted, whereas Farley is more the manipulative character. And, John Dahl wants to he's he's been listening to Jimmy Stewart's character Rupert. I couldn't remember his name. Rupert was their philosophy teacher, and he he had done a lot of talk about what philosophers do, about murder is okay as long as you have a superior intellect. And and I wish I could remember the Irish author that wrote about eating children. You know? It wasn't to be taken a little bit.

Brad Shreve:
Well, it

Tony Maietta:
was a lot of Nietzsche in master race. Yeah. Yeah. And then that's what you're just kind of putting across there. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And so, unfortunately, John Dahl's character, he kinda took it a little too seriously. And he was very turned on by the idea of, let's take someone of less intellect that we are superior to and kill them and see what it's like. And they deserve it anyway. And it's not that your gay body's gonna care. So he and Farley, oh, very beginning of this movie opens up with Dick Hogan as David Kenley. I shouldn't even say Dick Hogan. It was so fast. David being you are seeing them the neck the noose around his neck.

Brad Shreve:
You see you hear his last gasp, and he falls. That's how the movie begins. And the rest they put him into a chest, and the rest of the movie takes place with them. Well, John Doe wanting to really manipulate and see what he can get away with. He's a very sick twisted man.

Tony Maietta:
Well, they're throwing a party with David with the murder victim's family there. David's father, who's played by Cedric Harwick, his aunt. He even goes so

Brad Shreve:
far as to give the father books and ties it up with the Rope that he killed the man's son with. I mean, he is so sick. He's just like

Tony Maietta:
doing that.

Brad Shreve:
I feel like almost he was too evil. I woulda liked him to be a little more vulnerable, but that's the whole thing. It's really them having this dinner party around this dead body in a crate and, him getting his thrills, getting away with as much as he possibly can, knowing what he knows and them not knowing what they know. Yeah. And, Jimmy Stewart eventually Jimmy Stewart's character, Rupert, catching on. Like, I think there's something more here going on.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. He eventually figures it out. He eventually figures it out.

Brad Shreve:
It's a cat mouse film.

Tony Maietta:
So it is. So at the end of the course, they they get caught by Jimmy Stewart, and that's how it ends. They go to prison. But what's interesting to me about this, about Rope, and why I've always been fascinated by Rope is the tie in with Leopold and Loeb. And I think, you know, for people who don't know who Leopold and Loeb were, we have an expert with us today.

Steven Dogenoff:
That's right.

Brad Shreve:
I think it's even before your time, Tony.

Tony Maietta:
It is even before my time. Just barely. Bitch. But you think John Dahl's bitchy. You better watch it, buddy. But I think that, Stephen, if you I mean, you are. You are the expert on this because you wrote a fabulous play about Leopold and Loeb. Tell us a little bit about how Leopold and Loeb all factor into this and what the whole you know, just the whole idea behind it.

Steven Dogenoff:
Sure. Well, you know, as, you know, as you described the plot of Rope, Brad, it's basically, the story of a dinner party with a a dead body in a crate with with a buffet dinner being served on top of it, and 80 minutes after the murder, they're caught. And that is not at all what Leopold and Loeb did, not even close, but Leopold and Loeb were 2 young guys. They were geniuses. They lived in Chicago, and this all took place in 1924 when they were about 19 years old. But they were such geniuses that they had graduated high school when they were about 15, 16, and were already in college and were getting ready to go to law school. And the summer before law school, when they were each living individually in their own parents' home in Chicago, they hatched this plan, again, based on their love of Nietzsche's theory of the Superman and that they were superior. They hatched this plan to commit a murder just for the thrill for no reason.

Steven Dogenoff:
Not for a robbery, not for revenge, not for anything other than because they believed they were superior, which is what they talk about in Rope a lot. Yeah. And that they could get away with it. And they would commit the perfect crime and then go off and become lawyers and and all of that. Meanwhile, the 2 of them were in a sexual relationship with each other. They they didn't live together in a swanky penthouse like they, do in Rope, you know, because they live with their parents. But they were definitely in a in a relationship. Right? And they create, and Leopold really wanted to have a lot of, you know, sex with Loeb, and Loeb was more interested in having crimes that Leopold would would help him with, and so they created this sort of contract between them.

Steven Dogenoff:
You know, you do this for me, and I'll do that for you. It was like a quick quote quote type of a thing. So they first they decide that they're gonna kill Loeb wants to kill his younger brother, and then they decide, that might not be a good idea. That might sort of hit a little too close to home. Maybe we could up with someone

Brad Shreve:
else. Too far.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just like the logistics. You know? So then they decide they'll kill just a random kid, a a younger kid. And they get it. They they sort of know some of the neighborhood kids. And the night that they're planning to do the murder, one of their murder weapons was indeed a piece of Rope plus a chisel and acid. So they choked him and

Tony Maietta:
Oh, wow.

Steven Dogenoff:
Chiseled him and poured acid on him to try to disguise him or or make it so he wouldn't be recognized. Yeah. It was very much much more gruesome than in Rope. And if that critic lady thought that Rope was bad, she should've read about the real one. So so they're they're they're trying to find whatever kid they think they're gonna find, and they can't find him, but they come across this young boy who's about 14 named Bobby Franks. To make a long story short, lure him into their car, kill him, bury him by shoving him up like a a culvert pipe, which is like a water pipe in a Right. In, like, a park near a creek sort of and think that they have made done the perfect crime. And they're happy, and they're gonna go on about their lives and go to law school and do whatever.

Steven Dogenoff:
And they're caught almost immediately because Nathan Leopold has accidentally dropped his brand new reading glasses, like, right at the foot of the body, and they don't notice it. And because these guys were rich and of good families, wouldn't you know it, Nathan Leopold had the latest, fanciest glasses that had these brand new hinges on them, and only 3 people in Chicago had them.

Brad Shreve:
Then now sit down.

Steven Dogenoff:
One one was an old lady who, you know, went and got them when the police came a knocking. One was a man who had them on, and the third was Nathan Leopold.

Tony Maietta:
Fashion will kill the gay man. That's just the way it is. Yeah. That's just the way it is.

Steven Dogenoff:
Exactly. Right? So part 2, they confess because, you know, they had them dead to rights, and they are represented by the great Clarence Darrow who, you know, was famous for the Scopes monkey trial,

Tony Maietta:
creationism. Inherit the wind, basically, is

Steven Dogenoff:
basically the same. Yeah. Exactly. Inherit the wind. And he came out of retirement to represent them, but they pled guilty because, I mean, there was no choice. So their trial was just, will they get the death penalty, or will they get life in prison? And Darrow made this very long argument in court. It went on for, legends say, hours, and he won. And by winning, that meant they got life in prison and not the death penalty, so it was considered a win.

Steven Dogenoff:
Loeb, few years later, was murdered in the prison shower after making a pass at another inmate. He was, like, you know, shivved. And Leopold was eventually paroled after many years and many, many tries. I think it was the 5th time he was finally paroled and lived a quiet life until his death in the 19 seventies. And so that's the Leopold and Loeb story, and I'm sure that all of your wonderful podcast listeners have realized that that's not a Rope at all.

Brad Shreve:
It's pretty close, though. I'm surprised that the basis of the story is the the whole Nietzsche thing.

Steven Dogenoff:
2 Nietzsche and 2 guys that kill someone for no reason. Other than that Yeah. The the plot and what happened isn't isn't the same. And I have spent the last 20 years of my life when Thrill Me, my musical about Leopold and Loeb, which certainly has dramatic license, is not a point by point exact replica of exactly what happened because that would be very boring. That's what documentaries are for. I have had to endure people saying things like, really, the Leopold and Loeb story. Oh my god. I love Rogue, so I can't wait to see this.

Brad Shreve:
I'm sorry.

Steven Dogenoff:
You're gonna be you're gonna be so disappointed because it's not like that at all or the opposite. Well, you know, Stephen, I'd like to see your play, but I just I don't like the movie Rope.

Tony Maietta:
And I

Steven Dogenoff:
feel like, yeah. Okay. But so you might like this because it's really nothing like it. And when I wrote my book, Thrillmaker, which was published to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the crime and the 30th anniversary of me starting to write Thrill Me, and it's called Thrill Me because they were known as the thrill killers. And then the book about it is called Thrill Maker because, I guess, I'm the guy who made Thrill Me. So I was the thrill maker.

Tony Maietta:
I love the title.

Steven Dogenoff:
So, you know, I I thank you. I, I I talk about in the book that, you know, I I've spent many years of my life saying Rope is not the Leopold and Loeb story. It's inspired by the people, but it's not the story.

Tony Maietta:
Podcast. Here's a podcast that invites you to come on and talk about Rope.

Steven Dogenoff:
Exactly. Which is perfect because it's my now I can say, see how different it is? Yes. Not that I don't like Rope. I think it's a wonderful movie based on a wonderful play, and it is undoubtedly inspired by Leopold and Loeb, but it's not the Leopold and Loeb story per se. But it's you know, it it it definitely draws inspiration from them. But if you like Rope, I think you'll also love thrill me. And if you love thrill me, you've gotta see Rope. But just don't think you're gonna be seeing a musical version of of the same thing or a or a film like that.

Brad Shreve:
Pierce, I hate to ask this question because I know it's a difficult question for writers to know where there's where inspiration came from. But what was it about this story that you think just drew you to it that you had to write a musical about it?

Steven Dogenoff:
Well, way back when I first Stephen

Brad Shreve:
The story of Leopold, not Rope.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, Bea right. Right. Because I have not written a musical version of Rope. Let's get that clear. I, it was around 1994.

Steven Dogenoff:
I had an idea I had 2 separate ideas. 1 was that I wanted to write a 2 character musical about an intense relationship between 2 people. What that would be or who that would be, I didn't know. And I wanted to write a true crime musical. What true crime that would be, I didn't know.

Brad Shreve:
You're gonna say you want to write a true love story.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yeah. I ended well, look what I ended up doing. So I had those 2 ideas. And one day, I was in a bookstore, and I came across this big book of famous American criminals. So I would thumb through it, and there was Bonnie and Clyde, Al Capone, Billy the Kid, Lizzie Borden. And I came to a chapter on Leopold and Loeb, and it was the 2 of them together. And I had heard of them, but I didn't really know much about them. And I read this, you know, 5 page outline of their story, which I pretty much just told you when I told you what happened.

Steven Dogenoff:
And I knew right then and there that that could be my 2 character musical and my true crime musical combined. And I went home from the bookstore that day in 1994, and my life has never been the same because Leopoldelobe and Thrillme are part of my life literally Yeah. Every single day. For example, today, I'm recording this podcast with you guys.

Tony Maietta:
That's amazing.

Steven Dogenoff:
Tomorrow, I've got a contract to negotiate with my agent for a production, you know, somewhere. And, you know, I make my living off of pretty much the royalties from thrill me, and I'm always answering questions or doing interviews or engaging with fans or social media. So it really changed my life. And had I known that it would be such a big hit, I probably wouldn't have probably wouldn't have been because I imagined it as this grungy little show that would play in a theater down in the East Village of Manhattan, midnights with no scenery and a lot of smoke and red lights, and it would run for a few weeks and then I would move on to my next thing. I thought it would be a stepping stone. And it took a long time before anyone ever produced it. It was it sat in a drawer for about 7 years despite all of my hard work. But once it was produced, it became a a big hit all around the world, more so in EuRope and Asia mostly.

Steven Dogenoff:
Like, you could go see it tonight in South Korea. You could go see it tonight in Mexico City. I was wondering what

Tony Maietta:
I was gonna do in South Korea tonight. Well, thank you for letting me I that's good. I was just thinking how much I'd love it, but I think South South Korea is off to list for

Brad Shreve:
you today. Well, you know, here's what and here's what's fascinating, is it? Is that we're

Tony Maietta:
about Thrill Me and about Leopold and Loeb and Rope. Clearly, we are fascinate and the Menendez brothers. Clearly, we are fascinated by these characters who are on some kind of a spectrum Right. Who who create, you know, the this murder, Leopold and Loeb, and translate into Rope and translate into thrill me, have fascinated us just as they fascinated you. They they live through time. There's something about these people doing these incredibly, I don't wanna say when they are they were heinous. Leopold were heinous, and these guys killed their friend David. So these heinous things that fascinate us so much so that we're talking about this movie from 1948 today.

Tony Maietta:
You're talk your your play has been running for 30 years for god's sake somewhere. So what do you what do you think it is about these characters, whether it be Lee, Holden Loeb, whether it be Brandon, and Philip, that fascinate people so much that there's films made inspired by these people and by their act acts.

Steven Dogenoff:
Because they had they had everything. They were as our Brandon and Philip depicted in Rope and the real Leopold love, they were rich. They were educated. They wanted for nothing.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Steven Dogenoff:
They had good families. They had each other. I mean, they had a partner and ended up being a partner in crime, but a partner. And they threw it all away. You know, Leopold and Loeb could have each been their own Clarence Darrow, and and who knows what they could have accomplished with their lives. But they threw it all away just for kicks, for the thrill, for the for the fun because, you know, they read about it in Nietzsche, you know, where they heard about it from their philosophy professor as in Rope. And it's just it's mind boggling. Yeah.

Steven Dogenoff:
It's just mind boggling. And I think that's what draws people to the story. And, you know, and it's it's also it makes for a a really good thriller. And one thing that I've always liked about it you know, I was asked a lot early on, you know, how do you feel as a as a gay author, composer, writer vilifying these 2 gay characters or writing about gay murderers? And I just feel like I feel great because it's like they're just like everybody else.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Steven Dogenoff:
They are just like everybody else.

Tony Maietta:
That's true.

Steven Dogenoff:
There are plenty of murders. I would be wrong to not do it because, like, oh, well, you know, don't wanna touch that or I don't want them to look bad. No. Let's let's let's see it. It's a very human story. They might as well be a man and a woman. They could be brothers like we were talked about earlier. It has nothing to do with the fact that they were gay or were in a or or or in a relationship with each other.

Steven Dogenoff:
It it has to do with the story. And I think, it's got everything in it. It's got sex. It's got love. It's got murder. It's got

Tony Maietta:
illicit sex.

Steven Dogenoff:
Lawyers. It's got everything.

Tony Maietta:
Got a crazy aunt. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
It's really fascinating that people know it so well today, as you said, because if you ask people about a murder at the turn of the last century, because these guys weren't serial killers, I think there's 2 murders that would come to mind. The Lindbergh baby because

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Obviously, because of Lindbergh.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And then 2 guys had just killed 1 kid. Well, I mean, I shouldn't just say 1 kid, but, you know, it's not like murder wasn't going on back then. Right.

Steven Dogenoff:
The 2

Brad Shreve:
guys that just randomly killed a kid, and we still know them today. And it's because of that story, that very

Tony Maietta:
unique story. Well, it's also because of the fact that they did it as an intellectual exercise.

Brad Shreve:
It makes it more terrifying.

Tony Maietta:
It makes it more terrifying, and that's what gives it an added allure as with Rope. You know, these are 2 men who are doing this for the thrill. It's a thrill kill. It's not a it's not passion. It's not self defense. It's an intellectual exercise, and that's so cold. It's the ultimate crime done from this very, very cold place, which, you know, fascinates people with normal, guides of morality. They're like, how could you possibly how could you possibly do this? But it's done every day.

Tony Maietta:
And because they happen to be gay, it also gives it that illicit that little edge of a of illicit activity, I think, which is also very tantalizing about this. Absolutely. Well, thank you for explaining that.

Brad Shreve:
Jimmy brought up something that made me think of this film that drove me crazy because he talked about them leaving the glasses behind at the real crime scene. Being a crime writer, it was driving me crazy because I'm always thinking about the perfect murder, so don't piss me off. So being a crime, I'm always thinking about the perfect murder. And the whole time I'm watching this movie, I'm like, you're being so stupid. You're being so stupid. And, of course, part of John Dahl's character was he wanted to to be at the edge there. But still, I was like, and to hear they did something so stupid is to leave their glasses behind. I'm like, how in the world could you be so dumb? So

Tony Maietta:
That's so common. I

Brad Shreve:
guess I'll I'll cut the I'll cut the films

Steven Dogenoff:
Yeah. And then they and then they just crack.

Tony Maietta:
When you

Brad Shreve:
get guys like that, they're so cocky.

Steven Dogenoff:
Well, yeah, I think in the movie, you know, in in the Rogue movie, the the Brandon character, he thinks that by, you know, sort of hiding everything in plain sight, that is how they're gonna get away with it. So there's some Rope here. So there's a, you know, there's a giant, you know, crate that just happens to have a body in it. You know? So what? You know? Just act act like everything's perfectly fine.

Brad Shreve:
And that's part of his thrill.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, he I mean, the idea that they serve dinner on top of the dead body is just

Tony Maietta:
On his grave. As Jimmy Stewart says, on his on his grave, They served a meal on his grave, and it's true. It's so true. And, you know, part of the thrill too is the fact that there's also this sexual under you know, this this overtone, this undertone. When they're when they're substituting murder for sex, you know, when they talk about the murder as if it was sex. You know? John Dahl's character says, he didn't feel anything until his body went limp, and I knew it was over, and then I felt tremendously exhilarated. I mean, it's it's fascinating to me that this was getting they were getting away with this in 1948, and the PCA had no clue.

Brad Shreve:
I made that joke at the beginning, but I kept waiting for John Dallas for Brandon to say, excuse me. I've gotta go change my pants. I mean, he he was like

Steven Dogenoff:
Oh my.

Brad Shreve:
He had such sexual tension as he talked about it.

Tony Maietta:
Long after they put the body into the into the container, whatever it was, the chest, John Dahl's character Brandon likes a cigarette and takes a long puff off of it. Yeah. I mean, come on. It's just it's amazing to me that they got away with it. It's amazing to me. And I think that's one of the reasons why this movie you know, I have problems with this movie, but they're all very much I'm not crazy about the fact that he did it in this style. You know, I'm like, the story to me is much more interesting than these tricks that Hitchcock did.

Brad Shreve:
Right.

Tony Maietta:
But and so I and that for that reason, I would love to see it filmed just as a regular movie, you know, just to see how effective it would be. But the fact that they got away with this stuff in 1948, I love it. I think it's fantastic that they did that.

Brad Shreve:
I'll tell you what was really quaint to me. And, listener, we keep talking about high anxiety, and I promise you, Tony and I talked about it again today. We are gonna do eventually get to high anxiety.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
You know, high anxiety is Mel Brooks' spoof on on the Hitchcock films. And one thing he really plays on is is Hitchcock's film techniques, which were amazing at that time period. We we take them all for granted for now. The whole fading, the scene set up, I think of the best example I can think of is birdcage. Because one thing that really amazes people is you have that helicopter scene at the beginning of Birdcage flying in across the ocean, and it goes into the into the into the club and it goes right up to the stage. Everybody's, how did they do that in one take? But if you really watch, you can see there's a very quick when the helicopter gets close to the club, 2 people walk by each other, and it's a very quick Yeah. Where they clearly did the film cut. And it's so fast.

Brad Shreve:
People are faster than it because they don't realize that just happened. Knowing those film techniques today, you watch Hitchcock, and it's almost so obvious because Yes. Why would you zoom on somebody's suit for it seemed like 30 seconds. Obviously, it's only a few seconds.

Tony Maietta:
Few seconds.

Brad Shreve:
You zoom on somebody's suit for a little while, and then the the piece of furniture. And it really jumps out us today. But back then, that was

Tony Maietta:
No. They probably didn't notice it. They noticed it. Did you know about the trailer that they filmed for this, Stephen? Have you have you seen that, or have you heard that have you heard about that trailer for this? I have

Steven Dogenoff:
not heard about the story that you must be thinking of. So no.

Tony Maietta:
Do you know about this? So there was a trailer. Hitchcock shot a trailer that features David. That features the character of David, and it's basically a moment before, if you will. It is, with David and with Janet, his intended, meeting in the park, in Central Park, just before he goes to meet Brandon and Philip, and he proposes to her. And so it's it's with the actors. It's with it's with Dick Hogan and Joan Chandler who played Janet. And and she's saying, I'll think about, we'll talk about it after the party. He says so he walks away and Jimmy Stewart's voice comes in a voice over and says, that's the last time she saw him alive.

Tony Maietta:
And I was, like, that is a very cool trailer.

Brad Shreve:
That is so Hitchcock.

Steven Dogenoff:
I had no idea. How did I miss that? Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
It's a really so it's the screen I'll have to

Brad Shreve:
look for that.

Tony Maietta:
It's the only screen time that Dick Hogan the only lines that Dick Hogan got as David. So David did live have a little bit of life, but I think that's fascinating to

Brad Shreve:
Hitchcock. Wow.

Tony Maietta:
So, yes. So anything else we wanna say about Rope, about thrill me, about our fabulous guest, Stephen Dolginoff here joining us to talk about his work and also about Rope, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I will say I'm excited to hear that you're in talks with your agent about doing a new production of it because I would love to see this.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yes. Yes. Well, you know, like I said, fly to South Korea tonight, and you can

Tony Maietta:
go to South Korea in general.

Brad Shreve:
Keep me posted.

Steven Dogenoff:
Thank you guys so much for having me and

Tony Maietta:
Well, thank you for joining us, Stephen.

Steven Dogenoff:
Yes. And I really appreciate it.

Tony Maietta:
How can people get your book, listen to the CD? It's I'm assuming it's all on Amazon.

Steven Dogenoff:
You can get anything on Amazon. That's the easiest way. The book, thrillmaker, the story of my musical, thrill me, is on Amazon. The the the script of thrill me is published. You can get that on Amazon too as well as the cast album with me singing the song

Tony Maietta:
Love that.

Steven Dogenoff:
The songs as Nathan Leopold. I think that you mentioned early on, I had to and in an emergency, I had to take over the role of Nathan Leopold off Broadway. And like I told you, it was, like, more like Peggy Sawyer in 42nd Street

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Steven Dogenoff:
Than Eve Harrington in All About Eve. So maybe if you guys ever do All About Eve, I'll come and tell you the story of, how I ended up starring as Nathan Leopold because that's quite a story, but it's in the book for you.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, I

Brad Shreve:
thought you guys say you started Eve as well.

Steven Dogenoff:
And No. I wish.

Tony Maietta:
Tell tell the people your website too, Stephen, so they can go to your website.

Steven Dogenoff:
Stephen.

Tony Maietta:
That's And

Steven Dogenoff:
that's stephendolginoff.comorthrillmaker.com, just like it's just like it's s. And we will

Tony Maietta:
have a link in the show notes for people to check that out. So

Steven Dogenoff:
Thank you so much.

Brad Shreve:
And I know over 90% of you would listen to us on your phone, so it's right there on your phone.

Tony Maietta:
So I you know, I've so enjoyed this so much, Stephen. Thank you so much. Brad's been so much fun that I really don't wanna I know I have to say it, but I really don't want to. So let's not say goodbye. Let's just say. No. Let's say goodbye. Goodbye, everybody.

Tony Maietta:
Thanks, Stephen.

Steven Dogenoff:
Thank you.

Mary:
That's all, folks.