“The Mary Tyler Moore Show”: 4 for Mary

Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian, Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions

Brad Shreve:
too. And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, I didn't tell you this, but last year, I binge watched all 168 episodes of the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Tony Maietta:
Oh my god.

Brad Shreve:
When you said let's do it, I didn't bat an eye. I'm like, let's watch again. But I'm more than happy to dive into Mary Tyler Moore anytime.

Tony Maietta:
That's awesome. That's how was there even a pandemic? What was the point? Why did you just wanna watch them all? I

Brad Shreve:
am not a huge TV watcher when it comes to present day TV. I tend to go behind, like, I am just now starting Schitt's Creek. I don't know why that is. I tend to go back more to older shows

Tony Maietta:
Future episodes.

Brad Shreve:
And eventually catch up.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I love that. That's so funny.

Brad Shreve:
Yep. I haven't seen 30 Rock. I haven't seen Game of Thrones. Really no desire in Games of Thrones, but that's the way it was. So I don't know. We don't do a whole lot of banter in the beginning, but how was your week? It was great.

Tony Maietta:
It was great. And you know why it was great? Because I spent some time with some long lost family members, namely Mary and Rhoda and Ted and Phyllis and Sue Ann and Murray. Poor Murray is always last. It's kinda funny that you mentioned that that you binge watched it because I've been like, it's kind of like my life. I've been watch I've binge watched this show my entire life. When I was acting, I used to try to find monologues, and I actually wrote a monologue, a very funny monologue actually, of how my earliest memory of life was the first episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show. And then I I realized that it was starting to age me as I got older, and people started to do the math. So I changed it to be, like, a summer rerun.

Tony Maietta:
Then it was Nick at Night, and then it was TV land, and it was just ludicrous because it was like, okay. Yeah. Alright. But, anyway, yeah, it's always been it's I actually, you know, it was only it was it was partly true too. I can remember seeing Rhoda out on the balcony cleaning that window, at the very, very beginning of the very first episode. Wow. Isn't that isn't that crazy?

Brad Shreve:
I barely remembered. I remember her going in and talking to mister Grant. Mhmm. But I didn't remember details at all. And, you know, I think Time Magazine, I think it was in the top 10. Well, I know it was in the top 10 best first episodes of all time,

Tony Maietta:
which is crazy because it was a disaster up until the final filming. You know? I mean, that's kind of legendary. Did you know those stories about it?

Brad Shreve:
I know some of them.

Tony Maietta:
They didn't do a pilot because CBS automatically ordered 13 episodes. They wanted to work for Mary Tyler Moore. So they didn't have to do a pilot, but they did do this this tape in a office building of just the office in between Mary and Lou to send to affiliates to give them an idea and it was disastrous and then they filmed they they did a dress a run through and they filmed that on like on a Tuesday night, and it was a bomb It was a bomb people nobody left. It was a disaster And Mary Tyler Moore was crying on the way home, and Grant Tinker, her husband at the time, and also the head of MTM, and who put this all together called Allen Burns and and James l Brooks, and Tony all he said was fix it. And they did by adding 1 line. They added 1 line to the pilot. Do you know what that line is?

Brad Shreve:
I'm gonna guess the spunk.

Tony Maietta:
No. No. That was always in it. That was always in it,

Brad Shreve:
I hate spunk.

Brad Shreve:
Edvard Asner was such a heavy dramatic actor that he kept over hitting it He kept over hitting very difficult for him to do that. No They they did they realized they liked your script and there was really nothing they could change The only thing they could possibly change was the character of rhoda Was not getting a good reaction people were immediately alienated by rhoda

Brad Shreve:
and she was kind of harsh that a first episode

Tony Maietta:
She was harsh but Marge Mullen who was the script supervisor said why don't you have the little girl Bess say that she likes Rhoda, thereby giving the audience permission to like Rhoda. So when she says aunt Rhoda is really a lot of fun, mom hates her. That was the only line that was put in and it completely changed the tenor of the character the the eventual filming of the pilot the first episode that you mentioned went over like gangbusters the next time.

Brad Shreve:
Isn't that crazy? It's pretty amazing how 1 small little thing like that can make such a big difference.

Tony Maietta:
And it was such a smart they didn't have to make big changes. They added 1 line to have the audience identify with this character and give give the audience permission to like her. If this little girl likes her She can't be that Brad.

Brad Shreve:
I mean thinking about the show is she could have easily been erased from the show or Valerie Harper could have been replaced.

Tony Maietta:
Well, it was a very controversial character, you know, because, I mean, I've I don't know if you've heard this too. That's when when James l Brooks and Alan Burns, who created the Mary Tyler Moore Show, first approached had a meeting with CBS about it, Mary's character, Mary Richards, was a divorcee

Brad Shreve:
Yep. I knew that.

Tony Maietta:
Which totally, the the suits at CBS were like, oh my god. People are gonna think she divorced Dick Van Dyke, which is the stupidest thing.

Brad Shreve:
I'm like, how dumb do they take the American public is? But it was 4 years later, which is pretty amazing.

Tony Maietta:
But there was a there was a, there was 1 of those research people in the meeting, and he said that in the American public does not like divorce people, people with mustaches, Jews,

Tony Maietta:
Those were the 4 things they had to avoid and of course the show end up giving them all 4 at 1 point or another

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, that's

Tony Maietta:
just how stupid.

Brad Shreve:
Well, right up front, they had a Jew from New York.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. Exactly. So they listened to that, but they made

Brad Shreve:
Which I was really surprised to learn that Valerie Harper's not Jewish.

Tony Maietta:
She's not Jewish. Isn't that funny?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, that is funny.

Tony Maietta:
She was Catholic and she was not she's from California She lived in New Jersey and she based her she based her characterization on her stepmother who was very who was very New York, but Italian New York. So sometimes Valerie Harper, if she fought very hard first of all, her dialect is impeccable, but she fought very hard for it not to be Italian New York and make it Jewish New York. Nancy Walker's Irish. How about that? The ultimate Jewish mother is Irish, but we're gonna be way ahead of ourselves

Brad Shreve:
. That's funny. I I wanna put this show in context Because we think of it as groundbreaking for many reasons. And usually it's called groundbreaking because you had a single woman getting out on her own. Thank God this was 1 show where she wasn't constantly looking for a man. That was new. But really when I look at the time period, it's pretty amazing. I mean, like I said, it was, 19 71 1970 when this came out.

Brad Shreve:
Correct. That was only 4 years after Dick Van Dyke show.

Tony Maietta:
66. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
She was still an up to date housewife, so she wasn't a traditional sitcom housewife, but She wore pants. Yeah. But that was still her Thanks, Lee. You know, her position is still as a housewife. Now granted, Dick Van Dyke was groundbreaking in the sense that probably, if not the first time, the first time that really jumped out that you had somebody that a show that was half work and half home that worked. You Unlike Father's Knows Best, could we ever know what the guy did when he went off to work? I don't think so.

Tony Maietta:
I don't think I've ever seen an episode of Father's Knows Best.

Brad Shreve:
You kind of be grateful. Anyway, so We had that short amount change in 4 years at the same time. You probably know Fred Silverman took over CBS in 1970 and he did what was called the rural purge. Are you familar with the rural purge.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. The rural purge. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
In 1971, he wiped out the hit shows.As a matter of fact, you had Green Acres, Mayberry RFP, Hee Haw. There's another 1. Beverly Hillbillies. Beverly Hillbillies and I think Petticoat Junction.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Which got pretty shitty at that point anyway. Yeah. But they were his shows be like these shows aren't bringing us the right audience for good advertising. And he wanted to show he wanted CBS to grow up. And so he had married Tyler Moore and then about 6 months later he had all on the family.

Tony Maietta:
That's 1 of the more fortuitous things about this show. This show had a lot of good luck, and that was 1 of the things, the fact that actually Mike Dan, who was the original head, programming at CBS left. He's the 1 who was behind all of those rural sitcoms. He left and Bob Woods came in and Bob Woods hired Fred Silverman, and they're the ones who said we want ours we want this network to go in a different direction. We want the sophisticated urban younger viewers, and they just happen to have a show, which, by the way, was slotted by Mike Dan into a death time slot of like Tuesday between Hee Haw and I don't know some some other show. It was after Hee Haw. Literally, Hee Haw was on prime time television. Like, a depth time slot.

Tony Maietta:
Fred Silverman saw it and said, this is the show we're trying to this is this is the show kinda shows we want on CBS. Let's move it out of this death time slot so as an opportunity to actually create gain some traction, and he was instrumental in moving it to Saturday night, which, you know, of course, Bill was the linchpin of that legendary Saturday night lineup of the mid seventies, which I remember incredibly well of all in the family MASH Mary Tyler Moore Bob newhart and co Burnett It was like a dream lineup so it's amazing that the good luck that this show had in getting it on the air was amazing

Brad Shreve:
It just blows my mind to think of a network saying and granted, now the shows are the the the royal shows were not at their height, but they were still doing pretty well. So they never could say, you know what? These shows are doing well, but we're done with them. And wipe them clean. I mean, it's just it boggles the mic.

Tony Maietta:
That does. It does. It never I would never happen today. It would never happen today. It probably never happened before and never happened since. It was truly unprecedented what they did that allowed these shows that Changed the face of television all in the family and Mary Tyler Moore in the same year You know, all the family was 71 January of 71 another show that had a hell of a time getting on the air But did

Brad Shreve:
oh, yeah

Tony Maietta:
and Mary Tyler Moore and then they changed the face of television for the seventies. It was it's it's an amazing story, which I would love to go into the history in because that's what I love to do, but we're gonna start losing people. I might as well start singing if we're gonna do that.

Brad Shreve:
Love it. Well, are you gonna sing the season 1 version or Yes.

Tony Maietta:
How will you make it? It's what's funny is that they changed it. Isn't that funny how they changed it? Because they realized

Brad Shreve:
Well, I'm glad they did. The first season was kind of a damage.

Tony Maietta:
It was. Yeah. It's not it's not the How will

Brad Shreve:
you make it on

Tony Maietta:
They're like, you know what? Let's just say she made it.

Brad Shreve:
This time

Tony Maietta:
But they said, let's just say she made

Brad Shreve:
it. Let's let's just give her

Tony Maietta:
the benefit of the doubt.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. But it's also, this world is awfully It's how will you make it on your own this time, girl, you're all alone, something like that. And that's not what everybody remembers. Everybody remembers the upbeat.

Tony Maietta:
Everybody remembers who can turn the world on with a smile, you know, because it's so much it's so much nicer. Yes. How will you make it on your own? You know, you're all by yourself. Very depressing.

Brad Shreve:
You might just make it after all. I mean You might

Tony Maietta:
just make it after all. I yeah. It's very funny. Yeah. It's very funny. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
I mean, it just blows my mind. And who sang that song? Sonny Curtis. Sonny Curtis. Have you ever heard of the Joan Jett and the Black Carts version?

Tony Maietta:
I have. I have. Tony Curtis was this shit kicking, country singer. He was 1 of, Buddy Holly's crickets. Isn't that funny?

Brad Shreve:
No. I didn't know that.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He urban ed he urban ed up his voice to sing, the theme song. He wrote it, and he sang it.

Brad Shreve:
He's actually very proud of it. I've seen some YouTube videos, while back with him singing that song.

Tony Maietta:
It's a wonderful song. I mean it it fits it perfectly. It it just it's so wonderful.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, when we watched it last year, we said to me, he goes, is this the best theme song of all time? It's gotta be close. And I said, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Damn close.

Brad Shreve:
Cheers. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
I can think of Cheers as a great theme song.

Brad Shreve:
Cheers is a great theme song.

Tony Maietta:
You know, and friends. But yeah. Yeah. But it's it's it's just I throw that word iconic around all the time, but it is. It really is. It it's so of its era. It's so you hear that song, you immediately know it's Mary Tyler Moore. Immediately.

Brad Shreve:
Now when you were thinking about your old friends like Mary and Rhoda, etcetera, etcetera, were you also enjoying your time with Hazel Frederick?

Tony Maietta:
I Don't know who that is.

Brad Shreve:
You don't know Hazel Frederick.

Tony Maietta:
No, who's Hazel Frederick?

Brad Shreve:
Other than Mary Tyler Moore She's the only person that appeared in every single episode of the show.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, of course. Of course. Hazel. Hazel. Yes. Of course. The woman watching her throw her hat up in the air. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I'm like, she's some weird extra person. How about that?

Brad Shreve:
Extra. She was a local person in Minneapolis. What he did is, she's, listen. She is the woman that wore the the blue scarf.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
And when Mary throws her hat in the air, she's in the background of these. I think she has the cat eye glasses or something like that.

Tony Maietta:
Scowling at Mary Yeah. Middle of the intersection throwing her hat in the air.

Brad Shreve:
They wanted it to look natural so they hid the camera and Mary ran out to that middle of that intersection and tossed her hat in the air and I've heard her interview, she said she just kinda like what is that strange woman doing? And she kinda became like a a local celebrity.

Tony Maietta:
She did.

Brad Shreve:
Once she tracked her down.

Tony Maietta:
When she died, I remember it was on the news. That's that's the the weirdest kind of, seat of your pants celebrity, I think. It's just it's amazing that just for that scowl that she gives her. You know? Have you ever have you ever been to Minneapolis to see the the statue that TV Land paid for it?

Brad Shreve:
No. I have not. I would love to see it.

Tony Maietta:
It's a lot better than a lot of the Lucy statues, which in which Lucy looks a little bit like gargantuan in some of these the the merry one's good. The merry one's good, but it is her at Nicolette Mall where where they filmed that scene, throwing her tossing her beret in the air and ushering the era of the single woman.

Brad Shreve:
I did look on Google Maps at the, the the house where her studio the Victorian house where her studio was located that that Phyllis owned. And I looked it up on the real estate apps. 2104 Kenwood Park West. Yes. They have really fixed it up nice.

Tony Maietta:
I've been there several times.

Brad Shreve:
Oh my gosh. Why give my not surprised? Because if you got some areas, it's a very I've always thought the house was great. But, you know, it has the chain link fence and it looks a little old man. It is gorgeous today

Tony Maietta:
It yeah, it's a little rundown It's a little rundown in in the very first season and of course the famous stories about them going back to to film a new beginning And the owner would not let them because she got tired of people knocking on her door asking to see Mary and Phyllis and Rota. So she hung, famously hung. This was the time of Watergate. She famously hung impeach Nixon signs out Mary's window. So the producers had to pick a new house, And that's why the the first episode that I'm going to talk about, which is the first episode of the 4th season, the Lars affair, is the very first episode which suddenly Mary's moved. Mary wrote off all the the house is completely different. It kind of the same. There's still, there's still a turret for Rota to live in, and there's kind of a palladium window for Mary, but it's a different house.

Brad Shreve:
I never noticed that.

Tony Maietta:
What a great lead in. Yeah. What? Great lead in.

Brad Shreve:
That is.

Tony Maietta:
And for my for my first episode so yeah. So brad and I so brad and I decided to do I mean, look, It's kind of like picking for me. I don't know the same for you. It's kind of like it's not even picking your favorite child because I don't have I wouldn't have 2 dozen children. It was very difficult to pick 2 episodes to talk about for me because I love this series so deeply. But I had I knew which I I knew which 2 they were because they're the 2 that I always go to. They're the 2 that I always think about and I can I always, always, always laugh at and that move me? So my first episode is from 1973, actually September 15th 1973 and it's called the Lars affair.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, I'm stopping our conversation real quick. What? Why?

Tony Maietta:
Brad, we're we're in the middle of a podcast.

Brad Shreve:
But this is about the podcast and it's very important. Okay. Listener, whatever app you're listening on, whether it's on the computer or on the phone, reach your finger or your mouse over. It usually says follow, some still say subscribe, and click that. And what's gonna happen when they do that, Tony?

Tony Maietta:
They're gonna get notified when a new episode is available, and they can listen to us again. You know, I don't wanna miss that.

Brad Shreve:
No. Can we get

Tony Maietta:
back to the episode that we were recording?

Brad Shreve:
Of course. Please? Of course.

Tony Maietta:
Alright. Thank you. Don't forget to subscribe and follow.

Brad Shreve:
There you go.

Tony Maietta:
Okay, so so I think my I'm just give a brief Shreve plot. So what happens is basically this this episode, the reason I chose this episode, I don't know the fact that I love it and it's so funny, is it's historic for so many reasons. Not the least of which being the first appearance of Sueann nimmines. Yes Betty White's first appearance on the Mary Tyler Moore show in the Lars affair

Brad Shreve:
It's hard to imagine that they went 3 seasons without her.

Tony Maietta:
Isn't it amazing? But she came at the perfect time. The perfect this is the another fortuitous thing about this show because you can kind of tell in the episode, Rota is slowly starting to spin off. I mean, the following year was Rota was her own show and they brought Georgette in the year before season 3 and having Suyen come in purely as a 1 shot. It was a 1 off. It was not going to be a recurring character, but Betty White blew the roof off the studio with this portrayal. So they'd be like, we have to have her back. We have to have her back. So just at the perfect time, just as Rota is slowly making her way out, in comes Sue Ann Nivens to help him pick up the slack, which I think is amazing.

Tony Maietta:
There's a couple of amazing things about the show and I say historic things, not only Sue Ann Nivens. Cloris Leachman won a well deserved Emmy for this performance. And it was written by Ed Weinberger who only had recently joined the production team as a writer and directed by the legendary Jay Sandrich who was pretty much the primary director. He did, like, I think 19 episodes a year on Mary Childs, which would be more than the season now, but back then when you Brad, like, 23 shows, you know, 19 of them. So another reason why, I think it is an incredible episode is because it's also historic because it plants the seeds of the eventual dissolution of Lou Grant's marriage. Because in the very first scene, he apologizes to Mary for the scene that his wife Edie caused by locking herself in the bathroom all night, and then storming out and demanding a ride home from Murray's wife. So we we already have the seeds planted of the end, which was a very which was a very tricky thing at that time, divorce. What did we just say? CBS said no divorcees, no Jews, no 1 from New York, no 1 with a mustache.

Tony Maietta:
So they were already playing the seats for the end of Luz and Edie's marriage. But what makes this episode so incredible to me is the performance of Clarice Leachman. Clarice Leachman okay. They used to call Clarice Leachman, Clarice Brando because she was an actor studio. She was trained at the actor studio. She was the wild child. They never knew what she was going to do. They knew Libby Gold, but they didn't know she was very difficult to reign in.

Tony Maietta:
And in this episode, she gives us the ultimate Phyllis Lindstrom performance. If you don't know the plot, Betty White, Sue Nivens is having an affair with Phyllis's husband, Lars, and everybody finds out about it. And that's pretty much the the villains of the episode. Do you like this episode, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I did and I didn't. I love that Sue Ann Nevins was was introduced. She was a she was almost right on target to how Sue Ann became. She was pretty close. So I was really impressed that right from the beginning, she had she was a little, she's a little different, but for the most part she had it. I was never a fan of Phyllis. I, Phyllis Woods I love Cloris Leachman. I absolutely love Cloris Leachman, and I know Phyllis was supposed to be irritating.

Brad Shreve:
I didn't find her good irritating. Now surprisingly, when she went and had her own show, Phyllis, I liked her in that even though it died after 2 seasons. But I I sometimes I liked her. I was hot and cold with Phyllis. Let me put it that way.

Tony Maietta:
Right. Which I think is how she was designed. Yes. Yes. She was designed to be an aggravating character. And it's funny that you liked her when she had her own series because, of course, they had to soften her in order to get that was 1 of the big problems. The big questions is how are we going to have this basically unlikable character, this this aggravating character be a lead of her Shreve. So they had to soften her, which a lot of people say, you know, is also what made the show not work.

Tony Maietta:
But I mean, that's a debate.

Brad Shreve:
Well, Lars died, so she was more vulnerable.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. And we don't know what how Lars died, but let's talk about Lars for a minute. Okay. We never see Lars ever in the history of of Mary Tellemore or, well, in Phyllis. He's dead, so definitely gonna see him in Phyllis. We never see Lars. Lars is in the tradition of the great unseen television characters. Just to name a few.

Tony Maietta:
Missus Columbo, you know, from the TV show Columbo. Jeffrey from Seinfeld. Stan Walker from Willy Grace and here's 1 for you Brad missus Theodore j mooney We never meet mrs. Mooney in the Lucy show.

Brad Shreve:
I never thought about it, but you're right. Well, you have never missed seen mrs. Mooney.

Tony Maietta:
You never see you never see mrs. Mooney. You never see Juanita from the Andy Griffith show. You never see Sheridan from keeping up appearances.

Brad Shreve:
That wonderful show. Now Juanita was the operator. Is that right?

Tony Maietta:
Juanita's the 1. Yes. Tony used to sing to her on the phone. She he was always always Yes. He was always cheating on Thelma or saying Juanita behind her back. So Lars Lindstrom isn't in the tradition of these great unseen characters because they knew we knew so much about him in our head We such an image of him in our head that we knew if we ever saw him it would be anticlimactic I mean that rarely ever works and who's probably 1 of the most famous is Maris from Frasier again the same way we it would have totally destroyed our idea of what Maris was had we seen her. Oh, yeah. We just got delicious hints about her.

Brad Shreve:
And the fact that she was frail and sickly, and then later she became very big and overweight would never have been this funny.

Tony Maietta:
No. Because we have this idea in our head of what she looks like. Same thing with Lars. So we know what Rhoda says about Lars. We know what Phyllis says about Lars. We have an idea who Lars is. So what's so amazing about Clarice Leachman is is that Clarice Leachman, as I said, was kind of like the wild child. She would do these things.

Tony Maietta:
She was always getting into it with director Jay Samrich because she would go off on these you know, she would she was in her Brad esque mode, and she would find inspiration and she would go off on that she would never do the same blocking which is death in a TV show. You have to do the same blocking And Jay Sandrich would say, Cloris, that was wonderful. Only 1 problem. Nobody's gonna see it because you're out of camera range. So reining in Cloris Leachman was always Jay Sandrich's job and he did a brilliant brilliant job of it particularly in this episode where it slowly dawns on Phyllis that Lars is having an affair with Sue Ann Nivens, also known as the happy homemaker at WJM. Now, the character of Sue Ann Nivens was actually written in the script as a Betty White type. Okay? Betty White had been on Betty White was a pioneer Yes. Of television.

Tony Maietta:
She had a show in 1947. She was doing 5 hours live. Betty White was around forever. She was mostly daytime though. She did have a couple sitcoms in the in the later in the late fifties, but Betty White was on game shows. Betty White was always around and she had this image of being this Betty White said herself a sickeningly sweet, naive Just just just kind of a goody 2 shoes type character half of Serene Nivens Serene Nivens on the surface and then anybody who knew Betty White knew that she had an incredible she was not that wasn't who she was she was very kind and very nice. Yes, But she was also an incredibly intelligent woman. Incredibly, her her mind was so sharp and she had a biting sense of humor.

Tony Maietta:
So they created this character as a Betty White type and they Wanted and they said to Mary do you think Betty would do it? And Mary said because Mary and Betty White were very good friends. Well, why don't you ask her? I'm sure she'd rather be asked than not be asked and somebody else play it. And, of course, Betty

Brad Shreve:
White said, yeah, like who let's find a Betty White type. Who can we have as a Betty

Tony Maietta:
White type? Exactly. How about Betty White? Because Betty White was in almost every single taping with her husband, Alan Ludden, because they were very close to Mary and Grant Tinker and she said, go ahead and ask her. So Ethel Winant, who was a legendary casting person, basically said, would you mind coming in to read? And Betty White being Betty White's like, sure. Why not? Of course, I will. And of course, she was brilliant. So she was cast. So she called Mary and Charlie Moore later that day and said, I guess who's gonna be on your show? And Mary, of course, said, oh, no. No.

Tony Maietta:
No. I don't really muddle in much in my producer's affairs, but I can veto this. But, of course, she was thrilled because they were good friends. And so you have these 2 legendary characters, Phyllis Zindstrom and Sue Ann Nivens going head to head over this simp that we never see named Lars. And it's just a wonderfully brilliant genius episode. There's 1 there are 2 scenes that I wanna talk about. The fur the first thing I wanna talk about is the pie scene. Phyllis is now aware of the fact that Lars is having an affair.

Tony Maietta:
So she's trying to be a better she's trying to be a little bit more like Sue Ann, kind of like a happy homemaker. So she's trying to so she bakes a pie, something which is absolutely foreign to her. Hands that once touch the notes of Chopin, she says. This is what this woman Shreve me to, baking a damn pie. And so they all take a bite of the pie. Mary pretends it's very good. She says, Rhoda will give me an honest opinion. Rhoda taste it and goes, this is the best pie I ever had.

Tony Maietta:
And she goes, so I've become such an object of pity that even Rhoda is being kind to me.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I love that line.

Tony Maietta:
It's the best, isn't it? And then she absentmindedly takes a bite of the pie Phyllis does, and and Clarus Leachman's face just runs the gamut of horror and disgust and confusion. It's a brilliantly acted scene. Wonderful scene. The second scene I wanna talk about, is the confrontation between Betty White and Coruscalois between Sue Ann and Phyllis. And this is what I wanna talk about. First of all, it's a brilliantly written scene. Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
They're on the

Tony Maietta:
set of the Happy Homemaker show, and Sue Ann is baking a souffle the entire time and is telling, like, Lou's making noise. She's like, please, I've got a mister Grant. She calls him mister Grant at this point. I've got a souffle in the oven, please. At the slightest noise, and Phyllis wants to talk about what's going on and and and Sue Ann's too interested in her souffle, so Phyllis takes the oven door and slams it shut. And, of course, Sue Anne's horrified because her souffle is ruined. So she opens the oven door and pulls the souffle out and goes, my poor baby, and then turns and knees the oven door closed. And that is it was an improvisation of Betty White.

Brad Shreve:
I was viewed the way she kicked up her kicked up her knee. It's The audience went nuts.

Tony Maietta:
The audience went nuts. And this was a break. So when they were rehearsing it, they said it's a great scene But the problem is is there's this gaping hole between Phyllis and Sue Ann. How are we gonna get this oven door closed? Because Phyllis isn't gonna close the oven door and Sue Ann's hands are full with her souffle and Betty White, the genius Betty White came up with that bit, which not only solved the problem of the oven door, but told you volumes about who Sue Ann Nivens was in that 1 brief kneeing of the door. Told you everything you need to know about who Sue Ann Nivens was. So of of course, they brought her back. She it was a it was 1 of the greatest moments, I think, of that entire series.

Brad Shreve:
And I'll tell you something else I loved about this other. There was it was a big moment to me for Mary. I mean, this may have happened before, but Mary had some guts in that episode. Mhmm. She put Saran in her place. I love

Tony Maietta:
that. I love that.

Brad Shreve:
She said, if you don't stop this affair, Ted's gonna continue talking about and I will talk about it.

Tony Maietta:
And you know what a big mouth Ted has.

Brad Shreve:
Now, the fact that she said I will talk about it and you'll end up losing your job and

Tony Maietta:
like you go marry. It's so true. Well, this is a little off tangent. So I'm just gonna say it briefly, but 1 of the most fascinating things about the Mary Tyler Moore show to me and he must you really saw this because you watched all the episodes at once or close to at once is the Close to. Progression of the character of Mary Richards from this timid unsure young girl to by the last see it by the last season. She is a force. She is a strong independent woman. So you see and that's when Mary begins its progression of being more and more confident more and more forceful And I love that about the show they grew all the characters grew like real people

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And you know, a lot of people are upset in season 6 when she moved in the new apartment because we said it because that the house owners wouldn't let them take no new photos or I actually liked it. I think the problem with the first set was iconic. Yes. And everybody loved it. I wanted to live in Lotus, place. That's great. I remember Maurice going, that's not even a studio.

Brad Shreve:
But I'd liked it because Mary

Tony Maietta:
She paid $85 a month.

Brad Shreve:
Wow. Because Mary had become a producer at that point. So she'd moved up. She'd become much more sure of herself. I think the problem is that second set. I think it worked that she moved up. It didn't work because it wasn't memorable in any way. No.

Brad Shreve:
It was pretty generic.

Tony Maietta:
It was a pretty generic set. But she got her own bedroom.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. She got her own bedroom, but it was it was a small studio apartment not a small apartment, but it was, yeah, it was pretty small and it wasn't really interesting. I mean, have you watched the new, Frasier, the reboot?

Tony Maietta:
I have not. No. No. I haven't.

Brad Shreve:
You're not missing much. Okay. That's what I've heard. The living room in the old series is unforgettable. Right. The new 1 is very forgettable. Yeah. I'm like, I can't believe they blew it.

Brad Shreve:
I think they think they got it right, but no, it's nothing like it. It won't be remembered like the old 1. No. Well, see, that's the thing

Tony Maietta:
and that that's yes, you have to show Mary Richards is becoming more successful. So eventually, you gotta move out plus Rhoda and Phyllis were both gone. So there was no reason for her to be at home because if she was at home then 1 of the characters from work would have to come Because your 2 main characters who are part of the home set, you know for first 4 seasons there was the home stories and there were the office stories and you know melding them together was how you had to work. But you had to show that Mary was moving up and becoming more successful in getting her own very own bedroom. And she says, I'm so excited. My very own bedroom And Sue Ann goes, you think it's exciting? No. Wait till you get a bed in there.

Brad Shreve:
And of course it ends with her saying she hates it. But anyway, we're we're getting off target.

Tony Maietta:
So that's that's the the the Lars affair. Of course, it is ended happily. Lars stopped seeing Sue Ann Nivens, so Sue Ann can then concentrate full time on getting Lou in bed, which is a little tease for my next favorite, but we're moving on to Brad's next episode.

Brad Shreve:
I'm gonna say 1 more thing about why this episode bothers me, and it shouldn't I it shouldn't because I gotta think of the time.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, okay.

Brad Shreve:
What bothered me is is the old my husband Jolene. I hate the song Jolene. You know what? Screw Jolene. What what about your man?

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
And that's the way I felt like this episode. Sue Ann never made a commitment to you. She she's not wrong here. It's Lars. Right. Yet she wants to get Lars back. And I know, you know, it's the same reason the the movie The Woman drives me crazy. I granted, I know at that time period it was very realistic, but the fact in the end she take takes her husband back in with open arms, And it bothered me, and I accept.

Brad Shreve:
Did what year was this? This was 1973. Okay. That was the same year, I believe, that there was an episode with Mary and her parents. And Mary's mother Yes. Is leaving and says to her husband, don't forget your pill. And he and Mary at the same time say, I won't.

Tony Maietta:
I won't. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Wow. That was 1973.

Tony Maietta:
That was really something for That

Brad Shreve:
was cute. And they didn't they didn't the father just gave a look and they moved on. Very safe way

Tony Maietta:
to handle it. Very safe but so smart. It is. The show always does so smart. Yeah. I can see what you're saying, but you have to remember, this is not all women. This is Phyllis. Yes.

Tony Maietta:
I know. This is Phyllis' Phyllis, although, for all of her progressive attitudes and women's lived attitudes, Phyllis is a conventional housewife. Yeah. You know what? She doesn't work outside the house. She's a mother. That that's her life, her daughter and her husband. So she's insufferable,

Brad Shreve:
and you're you're kinda

Tony Maietta:
I'm still happy that, you know, they come together at the end because he's gonna die in a year anyway. Phyllis is gonna hang up on her own show, but I see what you're saying. You know, it's funny because this show although this show we talk about this show as being iconic because of the single woman on her own, motif of it, it really was of its time. It didn't start it. It just kind of bled into the zeitgeist of it and then kind of became the torchbearer of it. Because if you think about it too, and Mary Tyler Moore said this many times, she's playing this single woman on her own independent and Mary Tyler Moore was anything but. Mary Tyler Moore depended very much on the men in her life, on Grant Tinker. In fact, she said she didn't become Mary Richards herself until 20 years after this when she was actually living on her own and experiencing that.

Tony Maietta:
So I I absolutely see what you're saying. I do. I think it's all part of the Phyllis character. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And I forgive it because I know it's realistic. I'm not saying Yes. It just bothered me on a personal level. I totally forgive it. I think it's believable. Even today, I think there are women that would do that, but but it still bothers me on a personal level. It hurts me.

Tony Maietta:
It's just so wonderful. Yes. So brilliantly written. It's it's just 1 of my absolute favorites.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, really? It was a lot of fun.

Tony Maietta:
It was

Brad Shreve:
a lot of fun. I will grant to that. It sounds like I didn't like it and I absolutely did love it. So my first episode, like you, I had a problem because we when we said, okay, let's each of us pick 2 episodes. I'm like, okay, my favorite episodes, my favorite episodes. And you're like, do I really want my favorite episodes or do I want episodes that really represent what this show is about? And really, they ended up being pretty much the same thing. So the episode I chose was from January 1974, season 4 episode 19, the best of enemies.

Tony Maietta:
My heart.

Brad Shreve:
And the reason I chose it is because I looked around and I kept looking at 1 time, like, no, wait a minute. I need 1 that really shows Mary and Rhoda's friendship. Mhmm. And that's why I chose the best. You know what? When I watched it again, I really realized, it's not about Mary and Rhoda's friendship. It's Mary's relationship with everybody. Yeah. She spends she spends more time with with the lady than anyone else.

Tony Maietta:
That's true. That's true.

Brad Shreve:
You get a lot of time with her and me and and lose discomfort with being

Tony Maietta:
emotional. Right.

Brad Shreve:
And then trying his best and being hysterical, trying doing very poorly at it. It dealt with her and Mary a very short period of time, but you had me her and Mary as kind of the the the best buds for work.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
Equal kind of thing. And then you even had Ted, which I'll talk later about my my films about Ted. But you had Ted come in at the end and he acted very Ted. It was each of them had their part and played them as far as what Shreve relationship with Mary very well. But, what I love about Mary and Rhoda, unlike any I'm sure there are shows I'm not thinking about in the past, but unlike to me, unlike any show, these were 2 real friends like people I know. Yeah. You know, I I know Lucy is great, but Lucy and Ethel were perfect at what they did, which was slapstick.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I gotta I gotta I gotta disagree with you on that. There are moments of tenderness between Lucy and Ethel and I love Lucy, which I think are very heartwarming. When they have a fight and they make up, it's very similar to when Miriam Rota makeup. I'm just gonna say that.

Brad Shreve:
Ah, but I will argue this a little bit. Now maybe this is not every episode of I love Lucy, but it's it has happened on I love Lucy, and it has also happened on other sitcoms. You have the best friends that get into a big fight. And from that moment on, they act like they despise each other, like they're the worst person on earth. And that didn't happen in this episode

Tony Maietta:
No, you're

Brad Shreve:
really kept saying to people. It's alright. We'll work it out She's distraught and she's heartbroken but Roto never became I gotta tell you, she had every right to be angry. Roto was just plain wrong. I was gonna ask you, do

Tony Maietta:
you do you think Roto went too far? Oh my god. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
I was like, my interest. I need to jump in and shake her to death.

Tony Maietta:
So, listener, what happens is is that Rhoda divulges a secret that Mary lied on her job application at WJM, and she says it in front of the entire newsroom. And it upsets Mary, and Rhoda will not take it seriously. That Mary is actually upset, and that's how that's what the fight is. Mary feels that Rhoda but Mary doesn't. Wrote a did betray Mary's confidence and wrote I won't take it seriously. She doesn't think she did anything wrong.

Brad Shreve:
And that is the only thing I disliked about this episode because first of all, Mary is trying to say, Rhoda, I'm busy with where I'm busy with where Yes. And Rhoda seemed Rhoda's she didn't seem self centered. She seemed almost dumb.

Tony Maietta:
Oblivious. She

Brad Shreve:
kept trying to she kept wanting to tell the story while Mary had just said give me a minute to finish my work here for a moment and they won't stop. And then Lerota blurts it out and then kept saying nobody cares, nobody cares. Who do you care that Mary lied in her job application? I was like I was done for that. And I'll tell you part of the reason why is when I worked for Marriott, we had a guy who had lied on his application. He was, 1 of our executives. He lied on it from years before about his college education, and they found that and fired him for it. Wow. They said they could not trust him based on that information.

Brad Shreve:
So I maybe it hit a little more home to me than most people. Mhmm. But anyway, no, I agree. That set up the premise of the show, I'll forgive it because it really led into the rest, which the rest of the show was fabulous.

Tony Maietta:
It's yes. It's such, I'm so glad when you said you wanted to do this episode because this I love this episode so much. It would have been 1 of my choices, had you not said it. Because I think I think it's not only the depiction of this profound friendship that we've come to cherish these past 4 years, but it shows you how differ how far these women have come. The fact that Mary, at the very last scene, Mary is not the 1 who apologizes. Rhoda does. Now, 1st season Mary would have apologized immediately. Just immediately, but like, I'm sorry.

Tony Maietta:
I'm sorry. I'm overreacting. I'm sorry. No. She holds her ground.

Brad Shreve:
She would apologize before she left the new room newsroom.

Tony Maietta:
Rota, 1st season Rota, I don't think would have ever apologized. We never said, oh my god, I was I'm so Shreve. And that's what always moves me as you're sitting there watching them that last scene and they're dancing around their their garbage and murders fake garbage and you're like who's gonna say I'm sorry first and it's Brad and then Mary immediately crumbles, which I think is so beaut I get teared up every single time I watch it.

Brad Shreve:
And what's cute is I'm picturing because Mary is in this scene Mary is taking her garbage out. She steps out in the hallway and Mona comes down the hall down the stairs with her bag of of garbage, which she later admits is not garbage, it's makeup. Fake garbage. And I'm like hovering this road, sitting on her steps up above When you hear Mary come out the door,

Tony Maietta:
that's it exactly exactly.

Brad Shreve:
That's not even said but you always that must be what she was doing.

Tony Maietta:
No Yeah, because she's been you know, she's got she's got how much she is, like, $50 on how much worth of makeup here that if I if I throw it out, I will lose that natural look. Yeah. She's so brilliant. But, yeah. And, you know, it's so funny because you see the the fact that she's really they're both very distraught, but I just love the fact that it's Rhoda who recognizes that she was wrong and Mary holds out and we've all been in situations like that with people we're on the outs with We were like, but I'm right. I'm right and that can be really detrimental, but mary was right Rota went too far and it's a beautiful resolution.

Brad Shreve:
But back to what I was saying earlier, you know, Mary was furious, had every right to be furious. She was also hurt in her heart because she loves Rhoda. Mhmm. And Georgette comes to the apartment because she's on her way to Rhoda's for dinner.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
And Mary says, tell Brad I said hi. That is different than what you've have seen in other Yes. Sitcoms in the past. Yes. She's like, I don't she wasn't forgiven, but tell me where I said hi. Yeah. And did she get

Tony Maietta:
my high back? Oh, she did. She went by and went, hello. Was that you? How about well,

Brad Shreve:
since you brought up Georgia. I love well, actually, I love when, Georgia goes up to Warner's department and tells her Mary said hi. And I said, well, tell her. I said, I can't see Georgette goes, oh, okay. She goes running down. She went to the front door. Since you brought it

Tony Maietta:
up since you brought it up, you have to mention the the fabulous analogy that Georgette makes that Rodden and Mary.

Brad Shreve:
And, you know, you brought up you grew up in north

Tony Maietta:
North Northwestern PA. Yeah. Well, I went to

Brad Shreve:
Northwestern PA. Pittsburgh.

Tony Maietta:
I went to college in Pittsburgh.

Brad Shreve:
I grew up in Greensburg. I I lived for 2 years in Greensburg when I was in I didn't know that. 30 miles east of Pittsburgh. And I it was funny when she brought up that episode, it was actually Reese and his mom and I all heard you. And when she said, you and Mary are like Pittsburgh. We just went, what? And I said, oh my god. It's because of the 3 leaders. I mean, immediately.

Brad Shreve:
And sure enough, it was because the Monongahela I can't the Monongahela and the Allegheny The Allegheny. That's Rodian Rod and Mary. They come together to form the mighty

Tony Maietta:
Ohio River Yes on their own there are 2 little skinny rivers, but when they meet in Pittsburgh well, you know, they're the mighty Ohio River and it's such a I love that analogy I love only georgette would come up with that analogy, but it makes so much sense.

Brad Shreve:
Exactly. That is so Georgette because she comes across as this person that has, a beam for a Brad, but it took a lot of times to think that up.

Tony Maietta:
How about when she says she doesn't think she could handle being wrote as best friend? She's too green. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
She wants to

Tony Maietta:
start with somebody easier first and then maybe That's a lot of responsibility. I don't think I can handle oh, Georgia Engle, another casting masterstroke. You know, just just when, Phyllis and Rhoda were starting to make their way out, here comes Georgette to pick up the slack. She doesn't really pick up the slack, but what was brilliant about Georgia Engel and what was brilliant about the character was Georgette was Ted Knight was so unhappy with the way his character was because he was a constant butt of jokes. He just wanted something to make him more human and Georgette came along And suddenly, he has dimension. He's not such a buffoon. He still says stupid things, but there's this empathy you now have for Ted. Eventually, it grows more and more and more.

Tony Maietta:
And that's another brilliant way these writers showed this character progressions, You know? Well, he wanted to leave. He wanted to leave.

Brad Shreve:
He did. He was very upset. I guess I don't know if it was, Brooks or 1 of the producers walked up and said something about it.

Tony Maietta:
I think Grant Tinker had just walked him off the cliff about the character and then James Brooks walked in and went, no. How does it feel to be America's favorite bear schmuck? And so he just went off the deep end again. But yeah, Georgia Engel talk about unsung heroes. Ugh, just a lovely lovely performance.

Brad Shreve:
Can I can I touch on my feelings about Bill Ted back here? Yeah, of course. I have the same. I also This is a Mary Tyler Moore podcast. I have the same feelings I have about Ted Baxter as I did with Kramer on Seinfeld. I don't think either character should have been primary characters. I I found them as primary characters irritating, but as just a walk on, I found them hysterical.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I think the writers were very judicious in what they gave Ted, particularly in the beginning. And I think that's what upset Ted Knight, but as Ted Knight grew in that role and it took on more dimension and he became more human. I think that Ted is 1 of the richest characters that has ever been on television. Now would he be a lot to take like Cloris Leachman's Phyllis in his own series? Absolutely. Which is 1 of the reasons why Ted Knight had a difficult time after the Mary Tyler Moore Show. He did the Ted Knight Show which failed and then he finally kind of had a semi hit with Too Close For Comfort, and then he died, the poor guy. He was only in his sixties. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
And which is why because the essence of that character is a buffoon unlikable. He's a supporting character and it's hard to make them primary. So I understand what you're saying. I do. I I totally get it.

Brad Shreve:
And you probably know that Jack Cassidy was originally running for the role, and I

Tony Maietta:
He was. He turned it down.

Brad Shreve:
Picture him in that role at all. I know they've gone back as Ted's brother, and he wasn't such a buffoon. I cannot picture him in that role in any way, shape, or form.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I don't know if you know this, but with the original the character as originally conceived was a Lyle Waggoner type character a drop dead gorgeous Anchorman that they thought Mary might have a romance with And then Ted Knight came in and read it, and they were just like, this is the way. This is the way to go because because he's an older character, he has a certain amount of pathos, and that kind of so you you feel for this character as opposed to if he was this really handsome, drop dead. I think, Jennifer Aniston's father was almost gonna get the part. He was on Days of Our Lives. And then Ted Knight came in, and they're like, we have to give it to Ted Knight. He's just taking this character in a direction we never imagined, and it's Beautiful

Brad Shreve:
John Anderson was a very handsome man

Tony Maietta:
He was he was that's what they thought of 10 10 knight was a was

Brad Shreve:
a looker. Yeah, man.

Tony Maietta:
It's a good looking guy It was a silver fox, but it was a different kind of, you know, you can't the idea of Mary and Ted Having a serious romantic relationship is so cringeworthy. Yeah Clearly, she felt that way too when he made the moves on her. But, yeah, it's very funny. That's very funny. Absolutely. Well, I'm glad you picked this episode. I love love love this episode. For for its emotion, for the sentiment, for that final scene is just so it it like I said, I cry every time.

Tony Maietta:
Every time.

Brad Shreve:
There was a lot of emotion. There was there was, love and friendship in the beginning. There was hurt. There was anger. There was frustration. There was discomfort and then back in love again. Yeah. He really ran the gamut.

Brad Shreve:
It really did. So you gave Mary Tyler Moore her run for her money.

Tony Maietta:
No. It was and then Mary Tyler Moore won 2 Emmys this season. 2.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, did she write?

Tony Maietta:
She won an outstanding lead actress in the comedy, and they're they had this other award, actress of the year, but they only gave away twice. Her year in the following year and

Brad Shreve:
she won both

Tony Maietta:
of them. Isn't that great? She deserved them. She deserves all the Emmy she got every single Emmy. Oh, she did. Every single 1.

Brad Shreve:
Didn't the show win like 23 emmys total?

Tony Maietta:
Yes. They have the record for a while until cheers Blew it out of the water, but cheers was on for what 10 years? Mary Tyler Moore was on for 7.

Brad Shreve:
So Well, let's get on to my second episode. Yes. This was the next year or the next season, season 5 episode 9 was in August of 74, not a Christmas story.

Tony Maietta:
And can I tell you again, I think 1 of the funniest, just laugh out loud funny episodes ever? Oh my god. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
I chose it because I I remembered it as being hysterically funny. And when I watched it again before I told you, I'm like, oh, yeah. This is it. Because, yeah, again, it's not only funny. It every character in that show has almost equal footing. Yeah. They all get almost the same amount of airtime. Not entirely, but almost True ensemble piece.

Brad Shreve:
And really shows you know, they were silly and absurd and there were arguments, but they were still very realistic. You believe these people are who they are and you believe in their love and their hate for each other at

Tony Maietta:
the same time. What I love about this episode is it it hinges on the smallest little detail, the placement of 2 words. How many arguments do you have with people that get blown way out of proportion over something as silly and simple as as a misplaced word a misunderstanding. I love it. I love it. It's something so simple blows up.

Brad Shreve:
It's too damn simple, but it's also believable because Murray takes pride in his writing.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
And the fact that Ted switched that 1 word was enough, then makes it believable that Murray was so upset. And and let's see what the story is is Murray writes a new opening for the for the show and Ted likes it at first and then wants to just change the words around. Mary doesn't want him to. Mary finally says, no, Ted. Do it the way Murray says. And of course, Ted goes on the air and does it the way he wants to. Mary's married made it mad at Mary for not being firm enough. Of course, he's pissed off at Ted.

Brad Shreve:
Luke comes in and he ends up all of them arguing and fighting in the newsroom. And this is the same time that there's a big snowstorm that hits Minneapolis, which, you know, never happens.

Tony Maietta:
Never.

Brad Shreve:
They're like 16 inches of snow, and they snowed in. And what does Suanne have?

Tony Maietta:
Suanne has Suanne is taping her Christmas special because she likes to spend the holidays with her only sister in Florida. She's kind of a creep, but she has a pool.

Brad Shreve:
That was so sweet. And she says it with this big smile and her dimples. She's kind

Tony Maietta:
of a creep, but she has a pool.

Brad Shreve:
So Sue Ann has taped her Christmas show. It's in Thanksgiving, which is why this is called not a Christmas episode or whatever. Yeah. But Sue Ann is taping her Christmas show for her cooking show or homemaker show a month ahead of time. So because they're all snowed in, they all go downstairs and I wish I could remember the name of the show because it was so silly.

Tony Maietta:
It wasn't Christmases from around the world, something like that.

Brad Shreve:
But but it was something yeah.

Tony Maietta:
It was something Yuletide Yuletide Yummies for worldwide tummies. That's it. Yeah. That's it.

Brad Shreve:
I don't believe you remember it.

Tony Maietta:
World worldwide yummy. Yuletide yummies for worldwide tummies.

Brad Shreve:
So of course, she has this huge feast, and they all go down to eat this great food, but they're all still really pissed at each other. And so they're at the table waiting for Sue Ann to finish cooking and and Georgette is helping her and Sue Ann says they sing Christmas songs. But you

Tony Maietta:
missed you missed the the great gag of the hat. They all had to wear hats. Oh, the hats.

Brad Shreve:
Yes.

Tony Maietta:
They all had to wear hats from their different countries. Yes. And what was Mary's hat? Which is 1 of the funniest sides.

Brad Shreve:
Mary was a Kaiser, the the the desert helmet with Just a slight spike. With spike on the top. Because I saw her holding it. I'm like, is she really gonna put that on your head?

Tony Maietta:
Mary Richard's sitting there with a Kaiser's helmet. And Lou has a sombrero. Murray has some strange kind of bowler thing. Ted's got a Russian thing on. Right? She's got he's like a he's got like a big blue. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
It's and George had a Scott Georgette had a Scottish thing.

Tony Maietta:
This the camera the camera?

Brad Shreve:
Srianne had a, a thing from Holland.

Tony Maietta:
She's a little Dutch girl. Yeah. I know. I'm a Dutch girl. And they don't wanna

Brad Shreve:
wear the hats, but of course she's Sue Ann warned threatens them not to feed them if they don't wear the hats. So they all put their hats

Tony Maietta:
on Yes They all put their hats on and the camera slowly goes does a pan of all of them Down across the table and it is so funny.

Brad Shreve:
The looks on their faces are priceless.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, it's such a great scene.

Brad Shreve:
So they are told to sing the 12 days of Christmas, which each of them gets 1 line as it goes. So it starts with, Murray. Murray. Murray. The first day of Christmas. A paw a partridge in a pantry. And Ted is next. Turtle doves.

Brad Shreve:
2 turtle doves. Yeah. Is is Lewis 3 French

Tony Maietta:
Who's next? Who's next?

Brad Shreve:
3 French hens. It was

Tony Maietta:
3 French hens. Mary because Serena is 5.

Brad Shreve:
No. She had Much better than that, but she was that high pitched just like an angel. The other are, like, ready to scream, please chill those their their words. And Suzanne's Suzanne.

Tony Maietta:
Suanne. Suanne's 5 golden rings. Yes. It's just Suanne. Suanne.

Brad Shreve:
I keep calling her Suzanne. I had a boss named Suzanne.

Tony Maietta:
So perfect.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And this whole thing just continues.

Tony Maietta:
And Even after Georgette, they're still not they're still being angry with each other and antagonistic, and Georgette starts to sing Silent Night.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, and that is what's priceless about this show. It is what makes it different than other sitcoms past.

Tony Maietta:
That is what's priceless.

Brad Shreve:
So they're all angry. They're all the whole tables fuming and George breaks into silent night and They all slowly start joining in and the whole group is singing silent night together.

Tony Maietta:
No. No. No. No, no Jordan. No, they don't. They sit she sings the whole song all the way through all by herself, and they just sit there with these looks on their faces of of Sadness and like, oh my god. What have we done? Yes. And Mary says after she's done singing the entire course of silent night.

Tony Maietta:
Mary says anyone remember why we were mad at each other? And they go I do. Yeah, I sure do too. Yes mail a book

Brad Shreve:
back in where it's like perfect because most other poorly written sitcoms would have ended there with all of you.

Tony Maietta:
It was. Because you thought it would have been that they would have melted their hearts. Silent night would have melted their hearts and be like, but she goes, do you think you even remember why we Shreve mad? And there was well, I do. I do too. But, of course, by the end, they're all friends again. During the commercial break, they made up. They ate. Their blood sugar returned to its normal levels, and, they sang deck the halls at the end.

Tony Maietta:
I it's to me, it's like it's such a fantastic Christmas show that Yeah. It's perfect.

Brad Shreve:
It is wonderful. I like the fact that it wasn't a Christmas show. I like the fact that it showed every character, and I like the fact, on top of that, it's just damn funny.

Tony Maietta:
It is. It is. I think it is 1 of the laugh out loud the 1 of the laugh out loud funniest episodes ever.

Brad Shreve:
And now Tony gonna talk about an episode that they built up to for years. When Tony and I said let's pick 4 episodes, we both almost simultaneously said not Chuckles the Clown because it's so overdone.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. Exactly. I think we agreed. It is. I agree. If you you know what? And I give Chuckles all the props. It is a brilliant episode. It's a brilliantly written episode.

Tony Maietta:
It deserves all the hosannas, all of the praise it gets as the greatest episode of all time, 1 of. It's nearly near the top if it's not number 1. However, it's like you have that 1 child who's constantly heralded and all these other kids who are so gifted and so funny. It's like, no, we don't need to talk about Chuckles Bites the Dust. We need to talk about these upper other episodes, which are just as brilliant and have other things going on with them.

Brad Shreve:
I think more so. I I like Chuckles the clown, but it is so hyped hyped hyped as 1 of the best episodes of television ever. It is. And I watched it and I'm like, it's funny. I actually I I didn't like it because my expectations were so high. After I calmed down, I'm like, no, it is funny. But I think there's so many shows that are in Mary Tyler Moore alone that are so much better. So I'm glad we chose not to go that route.

Tony Maietta:
It is overhyped. It is overhyped. I I agree with you. I love it. I think it is because because the final scene because Mary Tyler Moore is comedy genius in that last scene, which she's trying not to laugh. And, you know, people get I love Mary Tyler Moore so much, and and it was so sad when we lost her. But talk about AAA brilliant actress, a brilliant actress. As much as I love Lucy, and God knows we all I love Lucy, comic genius.

Tony Maietta:
Mary Tyler Moore was another level as well of acting, of acting. All you gotta do is watch ordinary people, and you're like, what? What? But you see it there the whole time when she's married Richards. I mean, I don't wanna go off into an ordinary people tangent. Maybe we can talk about that sometime. But that last scene of Chuckles, she's that's so hard to do. Mhmm. It is so hard to laugh and not laugh when you're acting. Believe me, I've tried it.

Tony Maietta:
It ain't easy. She does it she makes it look effortless. And I think that's 1 of the reasons why Chuckles gets the praise it does is because Mary Tyler Moore's performance is off the charts

Brad Shreve:
I agree.

Tony Maietta:
In that last scene, in that final scene.

Brad Shreve:
I agree.

Tony Maietta:
But no. But our last episode is not Chuckles Bites the Dust. But I was leading up to it with the Lars affair, kind of the natural through line, because my final episode pick or my second episode pick is from 1976, January 17, 1976. And the title of it is, once I had a secret love. Did you know did you you know the episode I was talking about when I said I wanted to do this 1, Brad?

Brad Shreve:
I didn't know the name of the episode, but I was I was guessing it was either this 1 or the 1 where they go into Suzanne's bedroom, which is hysterical. I knew it was 1 of those 2.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. This is this is the okay. This is the 1 where, finally, after years of foreplay, Lou and Sue Ann spend the night together. And Lou comes to the office in the morning and is horrified about what's happened. It was directed by Jay Sandrich again, and it was written by Pat Nardo and Gloria Banta, 2 of the many female writers on the Mary Tyler Moore Show. God bless.

Brad Shreve:
Can I say something about them real quick? Please. When I watched that episode, I think it was either when it was starting or when it was closing, I saw Pat Nardo's name and I thought that's not a very common name. That's the same name as Leonardo on

Tony Maietta:
Taxi. Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
And as it was fading out, I saw Banta. Yes. For, and I'm like, big a minute. Tony Maietta of Leonardo. So I quickly went over to Taxi to find out, yes, indeed. That's where they got their names from.

Tony Maietta:
That's exactly it. That's exactly because it's MTM production.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. I had no clue. And it's funny that those just jumped out of me just as I was ending this whole thing wrapping up or watching these shows.

Tony Maietta:
It's wonderful. Yes. Yes. Those characters were were suggested by these 2 writers names that are on taxi because MTM production. So what happens in this episode is, as I said, Sue Ann and Lou finally hook up. Lou was drunk, clearly, and is horrified by what happened, and he has to tell Mary he has to tell somebody what's happened because they all everybody obviously knows. You know, Ted comes in and goes get out. Lou is on his way.

Tony Maietta:
He's on a rampage because it's just that's horror. Horrible thing is happening.

Brad Shreve:
He shoved my head into a mailbox.

Tony Maietta:
That's right. And Lou Lou wants Mary geared of all the liquor.

Brad Shreve:
No liquor in this office, and she goes to put in a waste basket.

Tony Maietta:
And he says, that's the first place I'll look. It's just the idea that a man would openly drink in an office is so 70s I can't even believe it. But here's what I love about this episode. Yes, It is a very funny episode. Once Mary realizes it's Sue Ann that Lou spent the night with because because Lou doesn't tell her. Lou is like he he had a situation with a woman and he woke up at her house, but he won't tell her who because he's so horrified. And he only finds out because Sue Anne has slipped a note inside his jacket. And he goes to pull out his handkerchief, I think, and the note falls out.

Tony Maietta:
And Mary's ringing over his shoulder. And she says,

Brad Shreve:
I don't know who wrote it. All I

Tony Maietta:
noticed is that they they they dot their eyes with little hearts like Suen, and the secret is out. And So that's you think that's what the episodes about and this is why I love this episode But that's just a small kernel of it. What this episode is really about is Lou swears Mary to secrecy Never to tell And Mary, of course, knows something is going on, and he takes Mary home that night. He drives her home, and he's badgering her to tell him What's going on? And Mary says no. No. No. She was right. I have I will tell you but you can't tell anyone and she tells Murray Well, the next day in the office it comes out and Lou finds out that Mary has betrayed his confidence and that's what this episode is really about.

Tony Maietta:
It's about the relationship between Mary and Lou. Because the thing with Suanne is taken care of, he buys her I think like like, 3 lunches and a dinner and she's fine with that. She doesn't get fine. It's about this this breach of trust between them, kind of a little bit like, the best of enemies, only much more profound. Mhmm. Yeah. Between Lou It's painful. It's painful.

Tony Maietta:
And Mary, it's it's gut wrenching is what it is because Lou ain't kidding around. And here's the here's the amazing thing about Edward Asner. You know, Edward Asner was a very good, very when he start he had never done really done comedy much when they hired him and they had their doubts about him because he was such a strong dramatic actor. And you see why in this scene when he says to Mary, you know, you'll still work here. It doesn't affect our work. We're just not friends anymore. And he gets very quiet and it's, you know, you're like, oh my God. And Mary is a basket case, of course.

Tony Maietta:
It's so moving. And I guess when they were originally rehearsing it, he was punching that up too much. And Jay Sanders said to him, make it quiet. And you get the guts of that We're just not friends anymore. It's in it's such a moment of when you take your breath back You're like, oh my

Brad Shreve:
god feels real It's so real stomach when he says it

Tony Maietta:
it does it's a total gut punch and you're like, how is this how is this possible? You know what I mean? But I mean, we've all been there. We've all we've all done something or had something done to us, but felt betrayed by a friend or accidentally betrayed a friend or maybe not accidentally betrayed a friend. And you realize the repercussions of what you've done of what you've done are so much more severe than you thought, and it's terrifying.

Brad Shreve:
And what makes it so believable is part of what you said. He said, you know, we're we're committed to work it together. I still respect you for your job. Yeah. We just won't be friends. So it's great that he added those in there. Yeah. Like, we are not professionals.

Brad Shreve:
This is it. That's it. Friendship over. Friendship is over. She is so distraught. But I gotta tell you, what really caught me, first of all, impressed me when Mary found out that it was Sus that Lou had had sex with Suzanne, right, when she realized the, you know, the heart over the eyes. Right. She busted out laughing.

Brad Shreve:
I'm like, Mary has grown up because Mary, you know, when your friend does stupid things and it's funny.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
And you laugh, but old Mary would not have done that.

Tony Maietta:
No. Old Mary.

Brad Shreve:
She's like, oh my god. You did this. And she's laughing in his face, and I like that because I was also a change in marriage.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Well, it's such a progression of character and of their relationship. These 2 are so close now that she's the 1 that he turns to to tell her this horrible story and she betrays that confidence. How how horrible? What what you're right. What a gut punch for both of them.

Brad Shreve:
And she was wrong for Tony Murray and I wanted to slap Murray when he let me know.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yeah, it was really Murray's fault. I mean, Mary kept his big mouth shut, but you can see why because Murray was trying to make Lou feel better because Lou's like when someone comes up and gives Louis socks, I mean, she's freshly laundered. Ted can't get it. Ted doesn't understand what's happened, but Murray's not stupid. He knows it. So he's trying to make Lou feel like it's okay, but he does the exact wrong thing, and then it comes back to bite Mary in the ass. And, you know, speaking of brilliance, you know, Mary Tyler Moore, what was she what was she most famous for on the Dick Van Dyke show was her crying. Was her, oh, wrong.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, wrong. You know? And so she does that in this episode, but it has just enough reality that it's really really Brad. It's really and again, it's just gut wrenching. The emotion and the sadness because you believe this could really be true. They really they really couldn't my but what makes it even more special is how she brings him out of it. But she says, you know, I betrayed a secret that that you told me. I the only way to make this better is for me to tell you something that happened to me, and you can tell anybody you want. I a man came into town.

Tony Maietta:
I'd only met him never met him before. Never saw him again, And we had same situation that you had with Sue Ann, and that man's name was Walter Cronkite. And Lou looks at her and she goes, Roger Mudd. And, you know, I mean, it's so it's just so brilliant. And the the fact that she's like, if you smile, it means we're friends again. If you smile, And that's how she gets him around. And they had that hug they have at the end when he smiles and he looks at her and he just shakes his head and they have that I mean, it's it's like a bear hug. It's an embrace.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm. You feel the emotion of that.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I don't think Edgar Azer can give anything but a bear hug.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that's true. That's true. But you get such a sense of this deep relationship, this deep love they have for each other. I mean, we're talking about sitcom characters here. Okay? And but but is this as if we're talking about Tolstoy? I mean, if I I'm sorry, but that's the way they are. I relate to them that way. The depth of their of their Characterizations the depth of their emotions to me is so profound and when you've lived with these characters for so many years and you're with them and all of these trials and tribulations they have you're right there with her saying we're not friends anymore. I mean that relief when he smiles is palpable.

Tony Maietta:
It is

Brad Shreve:
to me. Yeah. This is this Shreve point where we we watch the episode when they very first meet and they've now been our friends for 6 years. Yeah. And and the beauty of this episode first of all, it's very funny, but also You mentioned Mary and you're crying and I'm actually laughing it really shows her abilities But to me, it really made Ed Asner shine. Mhmm. Because the the gruff guy with the soft goo interior, that's been done a million times before Mary Tyler Moore. It's been a million times after Mary Tyler Moore.

Brad Shreve:
It would normally be cliche, but because of Ed Asner

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
It doesn't feel cliche.

Tony Maietta:
No. There's a reason He's rough and grumble, and when

Brad Shreve:
he gets that smile on his face He's like the most 1 lovable guy you ever saw and it comes naturally both

Tony Maietta:
the heft he brings to these scenes shows what an incredible dramatic actor he was now It's no it's no mistake and it's no accident that after the Mary Tyler Moore show ended and he spun off into Lou Grant Lou Grant was a drama It was not a situation comedy anymore because this man was was a very accomplished dramatic actor and you get that So much, especially when he says we're not friends anymore. Oh my god. It gives me chills when he says that every single time It's and you know They talk about other shows that have kind of danced the the line of comedy and drama, and I don't think Mary Tyler Moore gets enough credit for that because Mary Tyler Moore does too. This is comedy with drama. It's not Hamlet size, but to these people it is. Because it's their lives, You know, it's the everyday dramas which can be just as devastating and just as precarious as the great epic dramas that that we're used to. So I think it's so beautifully done. So beautifully done.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah, and I agree. I think it is as well. But I did read an article and I wish I saved the information and hopefully you'll know more about this. They did do an episode where Mary has a friend who ends up being racist and doesn't want to be around Rota or something of that nature. And because the world is Jewish. And when the movie when the episode was done, everybody felt like it failed. Yeah. Because they said, you know what? We're not all in the family.

Brad Shreve:
Exactly. We're not mod.

Tony Maietta:
Right. Yes. That's exactly true.

Brad Shreve:
In the right there, I I wanted to save more information. I lost Yes.

Tony Maietta:
No. That's exactly what happened. Mary this woman hits Mary in her car and and they become friends, and Rhoda gets a little jealous, and they're playing tennis at the country club. And Rhoda can't go to the country club because they don't let Jews in. And Mary's horrified by this, that her friend is a racist. You know? And you're absolutely right. They realized after they did it that this was not they weren't on the family. They weren't Norman Lear.

Tony Maietta:
Let Norman Lear do these topical subjects. We're about character. We're about relationships. That's where our drama comes in, and we do it better than anybody. And boy, did they ever. And here's something really interesting, and this is just me personally, but maybe other people. I find it very difficult to watch All in the Family and Maude in many normalyer shows now because it's so Of its time. I can watch mary tellermore show 50 years from now if I'm still alive at age 32.

Tony Maietta:
I I'm backwards I could watch Mary Tyler Moore anytime because it's about character. It's there's not I mean, yes, the seventies styles and there are references to Nixon and things like that, but It's all about character. It's all about truth and character.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. That, you know, like you said, the Mary Shadd carpeting. Oh my god. I'll never forget her her yellow and something striped, outfit that she wears when she's crossing the street in the opening. Oh my goodness.

Tony Maietta:
Those fabulous pantsuits.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. And she bought, you know, they reference Walter Kringke died a lot, Johnny Carson, etcetera, etcetera. But the show, when it comes down to it, it's all about friendships.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Relationships. And relationships.

Brad Shreve:
And that's why it this show will go on forever. On the family, I will tell you on the family, I was, what, 7 when they came out, maybe younger. And I was instantly in all in the family fan. Me too. If you look at my bio, it says I was a fan of Dunesbury way younger than us. I was I was very politically motivated in my head. This is I was like a sitcom kid. Like like, almost like Michael on on Good Times.

Brad Shreve:
And, so I was like, oh my god. And I was cheering Michael on because, you know, Archie was such a racist and blah blah blah. And he was such a conservative and I was such such a flaming liberal. And I still like the show and there's certain episodes I love, but I like you, when I go back, sometimes it's so hard to watch. And not just because there's a lot of that show that just doesn't cut it anymore because there's so much. It's so topical.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
But the yelling and the screaming all the time is

Tony Maietta:
like

Brad Shreve:
part of it is I I lived in that household for a while. It it's funny for a while, but come on.

Tony Maietta:
I love it. I can watch it now. III watch it for the performances. I watch it for Carol O'Connor, and I watch it for Jean Stapleton because their characterizations are unbelievable. So that's the only thing I focus on is the character.

Brad Shreve:
It wasn't a hit all in the family. We are definitely gonna do the episode where Edith loses her faith. Oh my god. Yes. Dies.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
If she won an Emmy for that, she should have.

Tony Maietta:
She won she and Mary Tyler Moore toggled back and forth with Emmys, throughout the runs of their show. As All in the Family, you know, All in the Family was number 1 Yeah. For 5 years. Mary Tyler Moore was always kind of in the it was always in the top well, it wasn't always in the top 20, but it kind of straddled the top 10, top 20 for its prime years, which I believe is begins with a Lars affair, and ends with, the season of 1 Side of Sacred Love, the 6th season. The 7th season, there's a couple episodes which are a little I mean, they're still brilliant. It's Mary Tyler Moore Show, but they're a little shaky. So during its great great years, I would say 4 through 6, maybe even 3 through 6, it still wasn't number 1. All in the family was.

Brad Shreve:
Always. Yeah. It was only number 1, and it actually dropped from I think like 26 to I could be wrong. The number is 26 to 40. I know it dropped 20 down.

Tony Maietta:
What Mary told them more? From Well, you know why? Because of the family viewing hour. Because in 1975, suddenly, the conservatives took over again. After these brilliant years of of sophisticated intelligent television, the conservatives took over again and instituted the family viewing hour, and they had to move all these shows. So suddenly, this great Saturday night lineup was gone. All the family, I think, moved to Mondays. They moved Mary Tyler Moore, I think, till to Tuesday or maybe they moved it to earlier, and it just it lost its its birth. And that's that's why. Plus it was also they were very smart to know it was time to go.

Tony Maietta:
They were very smart to do that. There's some great episodes in the last year when Georgette has her baby. Fantastic episode. I love that episode. I love Mary's insomnia when she's in the bathtub, and

Brad Shreve:
they all come into her bathroom.

Tony Maietta:
It's such a great episode. I'm in the bathtub, naked. But, yeah, I I think that all in the family I would love to do an all in the family episode and I and because there's a lot to say about all in the family as there is to say about the Mary Tyler Moore Show, which we've done.

Brad Shreve:
We could we could do more more.

Tony Maietta:
I do wanna add So much.

Brad Shreve:
Bring up 1 thing before we go, though. Because it's it's something that I it it kinda drives me crazy, and I'm disappointed in. We mentioned that they didn't want Mary to be divorced because they were worried that people would think that she divorced Rob Petty, which is That's so stupid. So asinine. The audience isn't that stupid. At the same time, when Lou Grant started, you know, it was a big that was a big move to move him from a comedy to have the same character Go to a drama now. They softened him up a little bit especially over time He became pretty liberal for Lou. So as did Edward Asner.

Tony Maietta:
As did Ed Asner became a feminist.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. So did Edward Asner. I don't think I don't know if he personally changed, but became outspoken at least. But that was a big transition, but they wanted to make sure that Luke Grant stood on its own. So they rarely, if ever, mentioned anything about the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Yeah. In fact, the only thing I know that was a connection is Mary's aunt from the TV series from the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Eileen Hecker.

Brad Shreve:
Ended up on LeGrand. I don't even remember that woman. I knew she was on several episodes. I know.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Mary's Aunt Flow. Mary Tyler Moore had an aunt who was a journalist, so she was based on Mary Tyler Moore's real aunt, and that was played by the brilliant actress Eileen Heckert, Oscar winning actress, who is 1 of your favorite movies, The Bad Seed. Oh, really? Yeah, she plays the drunk

Brad Shreve:
in the bad seed the mother. Oh my goodness. Just wrote

Tony Maietta:
his first victim. Yeah I can't think of what her name is in the bad seed. But, yeah, Arlene Heckler, aunt Flow. She was on Lou Grant,

Brad Shreve:
but you're right. But that other than that, they tried not to they didn't wanna touch on it because they wanna make sure. And at some point, I would have liked he didn't have they didn't have to have somebody come in and visit. Right. But can you just have him say, well, nice talking to Mary or just refer back to, you know, something Yeah. Just to make that connection. But they did the same thing with Mary and wrote it. And I didn't get too much in the way Mary and wrote it because it's painful to watch.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, the the movie. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. It was, for those who don't know, it was a 2 it was a, a TV movie made in 2, 000. In 2019, they wanted to bring Brad and Mary back with their own sitcom. Right. And the network said, let's do 13 episodes, And they didn't like the pilot, so they scrapped it. So instead, they took the premise and made it into a TV movie with the possibility, if it goes well, maybe we'll make a show. And it's really bad. Mary and Rhoda meet New York.

Brad Shreve:
They you know, Mary's, a widow and Rhoda's divorced for a second time and they end up living together because they don't need money. They need money. But anyway, in that movie, they purposely did the same thing. They didn't mention because they had done this part. They they actually Brad been separated and angry with each other for whatever reason. I don't know. I don't think we ever find out why. So they're reuniting.

Brad Shreve:
They're having a reunion and there's not a have you talked to Ted? Yeah. Or how's Georgette doing? None of that.

Tony Maietta:
I know. That's so sad.

Brad Shreve:
And I heard Clara Selicher was actually very angry.

Tony Maietta:
Really? Isn't that interesting? Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
That she felt she should have been a part of that. I don't I find I kind of I think everybody knows that Rhoda and Mary were culture makers. Oh, first forgot to pick Rhoda

Tony Maietta:
up from the wedding, which reminds me we have to do a Rhoda episode too because we have to

Brad Shreve:
talk about Rhoda's wedding. Oh, Rhoda, the great show that had a very quick spiraling downfall.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, god.

Brad Shreve:
It's so bright the first season.

Tony Maietta:
It's so brilliant.

Brad Shreve:
It's so bright. So it just it it blows my mind that they felt it was necessary that people wouldn't be able to make those disconnects.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah Yeah, I'm I guess I'm kind of glad that hot in Cleveland happened that they were actually able to have all of the characters 1 I mean that show became you know stunt casting 101. But to have every almost every except for god bless Ted Knight, who was gone. Almost every, character from the Mary Tyler Moore show appear on, Hot in Cleveland was really wonderful. And that and you had that moment of them altogether, which I think is god bless Mary Tyler Moore was was not doing well. It's painful to see her in such pain. You know, but, III Shreve. I see what you're saying. It's kind of weird.

Tony Maietta:
It's like you're just negated not negated, but acknowledge your your past.

Brad Shreve:
It's it's just very odd. Yeah. I was never

Tony Maietta:
a big fan of Lou Grant. I liked it. I appreciated it, but I was it wasn't my it wasn't my cup of tea, but

Brad Shreve:
I enjoyed it because it would dealt it with a lot of political topics. And as I said, I was this kid that was really into politics, but I saw it as a separate show.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Totally. I think that was our plan too. I mean, they just did

Brad Shreve:
1 Especially because he quickly be very softened up. It it made me the half the first season, I'd say at most, he was gruff. And even he was even if bad.

Tony Maietta:
Talking about a career or character trajectory. Yeah. Well, this was beyond fun. I hope everybody else has much fun listening to us as we get talking about it.

Brad Shreve:
Well, you said we could do many episodes of Wizard of Oz. I think we could do 20 on Mary Tyler Moore.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, well, like I said, I can't pick my favorite child out of 2 dozen. I mean, it's so honorable mentions, My Brother's Keeper, the first time a gay character was treated with respect and dignity on a sitcom and it was Mary Tyler Moore. Thank you, Norman Lear. It was Mary Tyler Moore who did it. Yes. With wrote it with Phyllis's brother, put on a happy face where Murray Tyler Moore has a very, very bad day, week, which is brilliant. 10 Georgette's Wedding. I mean, we could go on and on and on.

Tony Maietta:
It's just wonderful, wonderful shows.

Brad Shreve:
Yep. III think spinning off Frodo was a good idea, and I think it was a horrible idea because it really changed. Well, we'll do an

Tony Maietta:
episode on Rota's wedding and we'll talk all about Rota.

Brad Shreve:
We'll talk about we'll talk about Rota. Well, thank you for suggesting this episode. Thank you. Thank you for your suggestions too. I had a ball.

Tony Maietta:
I can't wait to do it again.

Brad Shreve:
It was a lot of fun. Bye, everybody. Thank you. Oh, and you know what? We need a new Cisco neighbor when they were done, they would say save us the aisle seat. Yeah. We need a catchphrase. Somebody come up with a catchphrase for it.

Tony Maietta:
Good. Because my I can't. I can't think of anything. I can't.

Brad Shreve:
You are always like, no. Let's end it. So let's

Tony Maietta:
end it. I'll think of a really good movie line we can use.

Brad Shreve:
There we go.

Tony Maietta:
Bye, everybody.

Intro Clips:
And that's all, folks.