Entering “Grey Gardens”, Part Two: The Marble Faun

Jerry Torre: 0:00

They would sort of debate at 11 o'clock at night. It would go on until 3 in the morning. They'd wake up and continue. I'd say, no, I've got to go to sleep. Bye. And I'd go downstairs, sleep on, my arm be cut, but they would just pick. I think they loved it. I think it was their way of staying alive. I mean it, staying alive every night.

Jerry Torre: 0:27

Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve: 0:31

And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta: 0:37

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve: 0:41

And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta: 0:46

As does your self-delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Little Edie Beale: 0:52

Yeah. I like Jerry. Oh, is that Jerry, for goodness sakes? Jerry, you're Aquarius, aren't? you. That's what I saw when I met you, jerry, remember I said the marble faun

Little Edie Beale: 1:08

It was terrible, terrible but, tragedy connected with the marble form.

Little Edie Beale: 1:15

And I called.

Little Edie Beale: 1:23

I haven't been able to find it. If you run across it, I'd like to read it. It's very deep. I don't know whether you Well, I guess you're up to it. They used to have it on all the I think it was on the high school reading list All the books.

Tony Maietta: 1:42

Brad, I am so excited for this episode because we teased a little bit before in the last episode, because we have a very, very, one more very special guest.

Brad Shreve: 1:55

And you know I said in the last episode that we talked about Grey Gardens. That when you first mentioned, I'm like I don't know, is this movie we really want to talk about? It's a documentary and stuff and I'm so glad that I listened to it and listened to you, because the story is just fascinating. It was a great show and it's a great movie.

Tony Maietta: 2:17

It is. And you know, as entertaining, quote unquote as my stories are, I'm only getting them secondhand from the man who tells them the best. So I'm thrilled to have my good friend, my partner and the dearest man in the entire world, mr Jerry Torrey, the Marble Fan himself.

Jerry Torre: 2:38

Thank you for inviting me. Tony Brad, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm excited to be here and to share Mrs Beale and Edie's Grey Gardens with you.

Brad Shreve: 2:50

Tell me, how well do I have this? Oh, it's the Marble Fawn Did.

Tony Maietta: 2:55

I get it right. Were you doing a ghost or were you trying to do Little Edie?

Brad Shreve: 3:01

Okay, that was the ghost of Little Edie.

Jerry Torre: 3:05

No Edie would be a little more rambunctious, tony, you have Mrs Edie down. I'm not saying he's not good, brad, I like it.

Tony Maietta: 3:15

It's more along the lines of For goodness sake, the marble fawn is here and here he is.

Brad Shreve: 3:23

I can do Marvin the Martian. Beyond that I can't do any impressions. I'm not going to do Marvin right now, but that's actually that's the first time you met Edie right?

Jerry Torre: 3:30

She asked you immediately she referred to you, jerry, immediately as the marble faun correct. After the door opened, screen door latch came open and she extended her hand to my hair and said the marble faun is here, loud. Yes, handed her hand to my hair and said the marble fawn is here, loud. That was the first name she gave to me and the only name she ever used. Yeah, I said. Of course I don't know who that is, but if you need any help with the property, you know Brad and Tony. I was so thrilled to be able to speak those few sentences then, so she didn't ask me to leave and I was more than enthralled by the setting. That mansion was right in front of me and so was the vestibule. It was a wonderful thing to experience.

Brad Shreve: 4:19

So, jerry, I'm going to ask you a question. I hate to do it because I know you have been asked this a thousand times and we're going to get into the details of how did a kid from Brooklyn end up at Grey Gardens. But the question everybody wants to know, and I know you've answered it how accurate were they portrayed in the documentary?

Jerry Torre: 4:40

How were they portrayed in the documentary?

Brad Shreve: 4:43

Was it accurate? Did we see the real people?

Jerry Torre: 4:45

They were candid. That's them. That's who Mrs Beale and Edie were. There's a little edge to Edie, who prepared emotionally and with her clothes and clothing dressing. She prepared every night for the next day's filming. But she was very aware that the Maisels were coming around again to do more filming. It was her debut. But Mrs Beale was completely 100% Mrs Edith Bouvier Beale then, and she didn't pretend to be anyone, anything else, anything, any person else. Edie, she brought it up a few notches for the camera. She loved it. She perfumed. But I swear afterwards, you know, she would say what am I going to wear tomorrow? Prepare the clothes, hang them on the banister. No, brad, they were pretty fairly authentic before and after the film. You know the dictates, the literature. She read the mannerisms. You know the dictates, the literature, she read the mannerisms. Edie God bless her was so pent up that when she had the chance to be seen and heard the cameras were rolling, she just jumped all over them and was flirtatious, curious. Edie ran the emotional gamut every three hours. I could say.

Tony Maietta: 6:06

So, jerry, let's go back a bit and for people who have read our book the Marble Fawn of Grey Gardens about your life, this will not be news. But for people who haven't, tell us a little bit about, tell Brad and myself a little bit about your background and where you were born and how you ended up at this wonderfully chaotic world of Mrs Beale and Edie's Well, I was, of course, born in Brooklyn.

Jerry Torre: 6:39

Where else could I possibly have been born?

Brad Shreve: 6:43

Oh, I thought you were Sweden with that accent.

Jerry Torre: 6:48

No, I'm Brooklyn boy here and I took off from my parents' house shortly after maybe 73. I was leaving, I left home and how did I wind up at Grey Gardens and Mrs Beale's property? Through faith, only faith, and God. He directed me there. I know it Because it had been so isolated and I knew that the moment I stepped foot on the porch that it was a really rare place to be, not only because of the setting but because no one had obviously been there or moved around the porch. I took off from Brooklyn. That's where I was born. I was a teenager and I worked as an assistant gardener for Mr Gerald Geddes. I'll tell you something I didn't know what to make of the mansion when I first saw it. It still fascinates me. I'm glad to be alive to share it. You know it's the most interesting time of my life. That's pretty much where it started, from Brooklyn.

Tony Maietta: 8:00

So just to give people the timeline of your journey. So you know, you were obviously, as you said, born in Brooklyn, grew up in Brooklyn and you ran away from home basically when you were a young. I could no longer make sense of them.

Jerry Torre: 8:26

And they were confusing to me. I'll be brief. It was a sexual exploitation at a very young age and making it even more complicated was the fact that my father, who was very heavy handed and I believe he was because it was rumored in the family that I was being groomed, so to speak, by a relative and they didn't like it because I was gay then and didn't even know it. But my father resented the whole episodes and he kept on beating me, hitting me, and one afternoon he put his hands around my shoulders and he said Jerry, don't let anyone ever take advantage or mistreat you. And I looked at him and said well, I didn't say it. But I said you're the only person that's really been doing that, hitting me and mistreating me, besides the relative who's been assaulting me physically, sexually.

Jerry Torre: 9:27

After that, brad and Tony, I got so confused After he put his arm around me and said those things. It was like a week later I just took off, I just ran with what I had on my back and I lived in the city subway system for a while. I didn't know where to go, I didn't even know my social security number, I just had to leave and I survived in Manhattan by being a messenger. Um, it's all. Many aliens took me to this fire.

Brad Shreve: 10:00

Okay, many, many things occurred, right okay, so you're living in the New York subway, which sounds horrendous. How did you get from there to the Hamptons?

Jerry Torre: 10:11

Well, relatives of mine lived in Lake Ronkonkoma. My, my uncle, very dear uncle godfather, knew that I was under a lot of stress at home and would often say to me come with me for the weekend and you can stay in the country with us. That's what he was there. He was building a beautiful stone country house, which is still there, and what he was doing was he was helping himself to cobblestones from the streets of Brooklyn. They were renovating the city's subway system, water lines and sewer systems, but excavating the streets he helped himself to a hell of a lot of cobblestones with tar on them, and all this. I would go with him on the weekends to remove the tar and to make them flat so he could incorporate them into the house which he built. It's still standing. He was a remarkable farmer, mason, gardener, everything. He was very good at all the things. That's how I got introduced to eastern Long Island. That was halfway out there. Through him I finished high school and lived sparingly with relatives, but a family invited me to live with them. His name was Kalbecker and from there I finished high school. From that location I went to St Jim High School, you know, and from there I finished high school. From that location I went to St Jim High School.

Jerry Torre: 11:51

It was from that point, brad Tony, that they had a house in Amagansett, long Island. That's one town east of Amagansett, east of East Hampton Town, just before Montauk. So I went out he said to me you know, I have a house out in the country for the summer. You're welcome to come there, but you have to get a job. And it's a cottage on the bay Gardner's Bay, most charming place, natural Gardner's Bay is all kinds of naturally beautiful. So I went out there and sure enough there was an article in the east hampton star. They're looking for an assistant gardener on a property on lily pond lane. That's all they wrote and it was a phone number. I called it. That went for the interview.

Jerry Torre: 12:40

I was hired as an assistant gardener to a fellow who was a gardener but most of the time was intoxicated so he couldn't do his gardening. It was really very simple I kept twigs out of the pool and raked a lawn of leaves and kept the trim trimmed and it was a joy. I had a $100 a week salary and I lived over the garage in a splendid little room and right below the garage room was the kitchen, three refrigerators. I had it made fellas. It was $100 a week room and board and I was living on Lily Pond Lane. I mean there was palatial properties.

Tony Maietta: 13:22

This was at the house of Gerald Geddes. This is the industrialist Gerald Geddes. Yeah, yes, and you worked for Mr Geddes. And what was the one stricture that Mr Geddes told you was essential in order for you to work on his yard, on his gardens?

Jerry Torre: 13:37

Mr Geddes was a lot of fun, and he would say to me and it always reminded me of this look, son, I don't want to see you on my property because if I do, you're fired. You understand me? Yes, I do.

Tony Maietta: 13:51

So you're supposed to work. You're supposed to work but not be seen working. When you would hear him, wouldn't you dive for the cover of a bush or run behind a tree so he wouldn't see you? I had a pattern.

Jerry Torre: 14:03

And in the middle of the lawn that I was cutting on the riding lawnmower was a beautiful beech tree, purple leaves, and when I hear the gravel in the driveway and his limousine coming in, I would just scatter over to the tree, pull it open. Scatter over to the tree, pull it open with a. I had a clothesline holding the branch so I could pull open the branch and duck underneath the tree on the rowing lawnmower. Okay, one day I didn't make it and he opened the window and he pointed his finger condescendingly and pointed to me to come over to him and I did. He said you're fired. And I was like blown away. And I was like what did I do? And he said nothing else except that I was fired. Charlotte, the head housekeeper told me Jerry, we told you, he told you not to be seen on the property, salty old bastard.

Brad Shreve: 14:58

And I said that is unbelievable, I know.

Jerry Torre: 15:03

Anyway, charlotte said you fired because you didn't pay attention to what his instructions were. And I said, charlotte, how am I supposed to cut the friggin' lawn? If I'm running, how am I supposed to not be seen? This is a big old lawn and the driver is horseshoe. So what do I do? She said that's up to you to figure out. It was really. They're really callous. She didn't mean to be, but she had to be.

Jerry Torre: 15:28

And that's how Mr Geddes addressed me. That's the way he was with all his employees. Again, I think that's difficult to explain any other way. Just joy, humiliating other people. And I just beckoned and went back to work. Charlie got me the job again. I would tiptoe up to the attic and go back to my room off the garage. He had a beautiful setting. I loved it there Brad Swimming pool in the backyard, fancy lawn parties, nobody ate anything. I would go there after the party and hide some shrimp in the refrigerator and hide this for the nighttime and I ate like a king. I know it's a lot of information, but it was a wild summer.

Brad Shreve: 16:16

So you I mean, it really sounds like you had a really cushy setup. You had your nice apartment above the garage. You were on in great grounds Granted, the guy you worked for was an asshole, but it was a good environment overall. Beyond that, and somehow you started hanging out more often at Grey Gardens. How did you get? How did you get from where you were to finding Grey Gardens?

Jerry Torre: 16:39

Simple. My chores were quick at the prop on the estate, so if you would no less than an hour often in the morning then he leaves the fellows of the swimming pool and he twigs and landed on the lawn, I would pick them up quick, fast. I didn't need any heavy equipment to just rake a few leaves and get the vacuum to remove the leaves from the swimming pool and my jaws. Chores that were done. I had purchased a peugeot bicycle and it was like freedom land.

Jerry Torre: 17:11

One afternoon I had chosen to go down a country road, brad, that I had not yet written. There was this road, that road, and they were all flat and lovely and the properties were great Geese on the lawn, daffodils along the patterns, beautiful properties. This day I went down Lily Pond Lane to a road. I had not yet turned, made a right. Then I saw to my left these huge privet hedges. Now I knew privet hedges around Getty's property. They were maybe three feet in trim, trimmed property, but these were every bit of 30 feet tall. And gee, I turned left and there, right above my shoulder, was a peak of a mansion, but I couldn't tell where it was located because of the brush overgrowing it. So I didn't know where is this peak of the front, the back, the side? It was impossible to see anything but that peak of that match's room. It happened to be the boys' bedroom.

Brad Shreve: 18:25

No, I'm not a gardener, but generally speaking, bushes aren't 30 feet tall.

Jerry Torre: 18:29

No, these hedges, oh hedges aren't 30 feet tall.

Jerry Torre: 18:33

No, no, no, they aren't. They didn't trim. They didn't have money for a gardener, mrs Bielaniti, didn't, I found out later? Nor did they have money for sanitation to come pick up debris. So they stored it where they could, starting with the kitchen, library, pantry and so on. Back to the setting. It was overgrown because they didn't have a gardener to do the trimming, a gardener to do the trimming, until I showed up and did my best but didn't do a lot because I couldn't cut those damn branches. Up there the trees were 30 feet tall.

Tony Maietta: 19:08

Well, jerry, let me ask you. So you were on your bike, you saw the house. I guess what always amazed me and I've known your story for a decade now what always amazed me was how you had, at your young age, at 14, 15, how you had the guts to walk up to the front door and actually knock on the door of this. Essentially, you didn't know what was living in there, you didn't know if it was abandoned, if anybody lived there. But where did you find that courage to walk up and knock on the door?

Jerry Torre: 19:40

The first afternoon morning that I found the mansion, I didn't go up to the property. I did notice a car in the driveway over there, but I didn't go onto the porch. I did go back to my residence. In the afternoon I was lying awake thinking of what I just saw. It became evening, obviously. And I'm lying to say, okay, jerry, you're going to go back to that property and see what I just saw. It became evening, obviously. And I'm lying to say, okay, jerry, you're going to go back to that property and see what's going on. What is this place? I was so fascinated, curious-wise, so I went back on my bicycle and there was a light on on the porch. Brad, tony, there was a light on on the second floor, on to the left side of the mansion, which happened to be the northern section of the mansion, and I said somebody lives here because the lights are on.

Jerry Torre: 20:27

So then I went back to my little residence again, smoked about a pack of cigarettes and finally the dawn came and I went to work, finished my chores and then went back to the mansion. In front of it I took my bike and dashed it into the overgrowth. As I was looking to get to the car. I found a little path and went over to the Cadillac. It was in the driveway. It had been there since who knows 1940. It had been there since who knows 1940. It was so overgrown, the car, with trees, branches, bittersweet, wisteria, vine, wild grapes, that if it did run it couldn't have left the driveway because the saplings encompassed the entire car. I mean, it was impossible for tow trucks to get it out. It was a little obscene to get them in there, but they did eventually.

Brad Shreve: 21:24

You know, jerry, you obviously must not watch many movies, because there should have been a creepy old man there with a gun.

Jerry Torre: 21:32

Nobody was there with a gun. There was no hostility. I was trespassing Brad after that morning and I went to the car. The car was fascinating, had the keys to the ignition and the driver's door was ajar from vines that had encompassed it, so you couldn't even shut the door. And there was air in the white wool tires, which is all very interesting to me because it was a fascinating setting. There were ferns growing from the bumper of the car. Okay, there I go from the car and I look to my left and here's the front porch.

Jerry Torre: 22:10

Tony, where did I get the courage? My curiosity was so strong. The courage had very little to do with it. I said okay, jerry, you're either going to get arrested for trespassing or someone's going to tell you to leave the property. I didn't care if they asked me to leave, but I did have to go up to the porch. It was really important that I went up to the front porch.

Jerry Torre: 22:34

Then I'm on the porch, it's creaking, and I go over to the front door it's a Dutch door, you know and a screen door. In front of it, on the side of the door, are two paneled leaded glass windows. They did open, but they never opened at all when I was there and I cleaned some dust and stuff from the window and I breathed on the window pane and I looked into the vestibule and there were cobwebs and there was a tunnel that this person, who I didn't know, had obviously traveled down the stairs through the cobwebs, through the front door. It was a tunnel in which she would pass. There literally were shoulders that stop the cobwebs from proceeding to grow.

Jerry Torre: 23:25

Anyway, I knocked on the diamond-shaped window, but quick-fast, I saw white shoes passing under the banister of the second floor, of the second floor of the mansion, and then quickly, she came down the main stairs, three landings, through the cobweb tunnel, opened the door, opened the screen door. I heard the latch I could still hear it and said mother, the marble faun is here and I just froze one. I'd never heard of that person. I told this person that I did never. Secondly, the stance was like something did never. Secondly, the stance was like something you never could believe. It's powerful, so powerful that my eyes were tearing from the smell of cat litter and cat piss and decaying wood and everything else that was locked into that vestibule.

Tony Maietta: 24:18

I think it's important. You said there was no. Yes, there was no scary man with a gun waiting to accost you, but there was an unearthly creature that you did meet, who you were just talking about. Can you tell us a little bit about when Edie opened the door and said for goodness sakes, the Marble Fawn is here. Mother, the Marble Fawn is here. What confronted you? What did she look like? What was she wearing?

Jerry Torre: 24:46

She descended the stairs. She was wearing a shower curtain a cloth shower curtain around her shoulders and around her head and tied somehow she tied it. It was a chef's apron, a white chef's apron that you'd see someone wearing cooking in the stove, in front of the stove, and it was a heavy white apron that traveled across her shoulders, sort of Egyptian looking, egyptian looking. She had gear of an Egyptian pharaoh and it draped onto her shoulders and it went down and it was tied with another piece of cloth and it was wrapped around her waist and, of course, under that was a shallow curtain. It was a cloth shallow curtain.

Jerry Torre: 25:34

I don't remember the pattern but I could only stare and just an unbelievable person in front of me, edie. I found out her name was Edie. She had a presence unusual to anyone I've ever met, since it was airy, sophisticated, she spoke beautifully, it was well-mannered. It didn't make any sense, brad, tony, here's this woman wearing whatever she could find to put around her shoulders and this mansion who's decaying, all around her, but spoke like she just came out of a novel, dickens novel.

Brad Shreve: 26:12

That's what I find interesting the setup that they lived in. She's wearing shower curtains and she called you the marble fawn. She clearly was well educatededucated, or well-read at least.

Jerry Torre: 26:24

Yes, I found out later in the time we shared about the title the Marble Fawn, and it's a coincidence in many ways the Marble Fawn did. I almost fulfilled my destiny, as Edie had predicted in a later scene in the movie, because I got into trouble with drinking and everything.

Tony Maietta: 26:48

Well, there's a yeah, there's a tragedy in the Nathaniel Hawthorne book that's called the Marble Fawn, which we touched on a little bit in our previous episode and based on a statue a Greek statue of a young boy leaning against a stump, which you looked like at that time, jerry. You had the hair. You looked a lot like that greek statue, that's why she called you that you said it and I didn't know that book nor the statue.

Jerry Torre: 27:12

I can't pronounce the sculptor's name offhand. It starts with a p? Um. He's a real sculptor. But that statue, the photo was on the cover and later in the years I did see it and I actually did resemble the statue Long hair, you know, the same torso, everything you know. I'm not going to elaborate.

Tony Maietta: 27:35

I mean, that just shows you what reference they were. As you said, they were. Incredibly. Both of them educated, spoke eloquently. They were aristocrats living in this amazing dilapidated environment. So that just had to be mind-blowing to you, because it's mind-blowing to us as an audience watching the film.

Jerry Torre: 27:56

It was mind-blowing, and remember again, they were so sophisticated. Literature was a-blowing, and remember again, they were so sophisticated. Literature was a second nature. Verse and theater was common sense to them. Mrs Bialiniti could recite poetry in Longfellow and recite Thoreau, david Thoreau Naturally I can't pronounce his name, but that's it.

Brad Shreve: 28:19

Tony, I'm stopping our conversation real quick why? Why we're in the middle of a podcast but this is about the podcast and it's very important okay listener. Whatever app you're listening on, whether it's on the computer or on the phone, reach your finger or your mouse over. It usually says follow. Some still say subscribe and click that. And what's going to happen when they do that, tony?

Tony Maietta: 28:41

They're going to get notified when a new episode is available and they can listen to us again. You know you don't want to miss that.

Brad Shreve: 28:48

No.

Tony Maietta: 28:48

Can we get back to the episode that we were recording, of course, please.

Brad Shreve: 28:51

Of course.

Tony Maietta: 28:52

All right, thank you. Don't forget to subscribe and follow there you go. I would love to if we could just fast forward a bit, just for time's sake, because I mean, you're still, one story is more fascinating than the next with you. But I just, and people, if they want to know the entire story, just you know, buy our book the marble faun of gray gardens and you can get all these stories. But, jerry, I wonder if you could tell us just about some of the more challenging things that you faced.

Jerry Torre: 29:17

Oh, gray gardens gee, there were many, one beginning with one. Um, it was an early morning. Mrs Beale was cooking on a mattress she's a mattress but a sterno. She'd light and do her cooking using a campfire sterno to cook for a corn tea, oatmeal, soup, heating, soup heating. And I was there. I didn't think anything of it, I didn't think it was unusual because everything there was.

Jerry Torre: 29:47

But Mrs Bue was fumbling with the lid of the sterno to put out the fire, the flame, the blue flame, and in doing that she was very clumsy, knocked the sterno over and the flames, the flame just spread underneath the sterno and behind the cat and underneath the newspaper and over there the tissues, and it was a box of jellies. And I just stood up and just looked and freaked out and I put my hands in puff, puff, puff, puff, put out the fire so it didn't catch the mattress anymore or absorb. It, didn't get the fire out of control. Edie's over there in La La Land. Good morning Edie. The mattress is going to be on fire because the flame is blue. It's traveling towards you, but nobody's home. Light's on but nobody's home with Edie.

Brad Shreve: 30:39

I want us to get to when the Maisel showed up, but because you're talking about the sterno, I have to ask you this question right now.

Jerry Torre: 30:45

Yes.

Brad Shreve: 30:46

Big Edie said that you liked her corn. Did you like her corn?

Jerry Torre: 30:54

I was polite, that's all I could say. I loved her. There wouldn't be this polite disrespect.

Tony Maietta: 30:59

You were incredibly brave, Jerry, to eat many of the things that they handed you. I mean, it was something.

Jerry Torre: 31:07

Here was the agreement we made After the fire incident that morning, flames blew, I said. After the flames. I said I knew better than to scold or try to. I said, mrs Beale, promise me that whenever you decide to cook you'll call me and I'll come up and dine with you, whether it's tea or oatmeal or anything. So corn morning afternoon Albert was there, david, she was making corn and I was told she lit the flame and went quick, fast upstairs to coordinate the cooking of the corn, which I, by the way, brought over as a gift. Big deal. And she made the corn and she offered it to me. I dare not say no because I didn't want to hurt Mrs Beale's feelings. And yeah, I was polite. Big deal, what's that?

Tony Maietta: 32:00

You know, you just mentioned. Yes, you are, you mentioned, you just mentioned David and Albert, so I think probably we should talk about who David and Albert were and what. Exactly how in the world? This movie Grey Gardens. What was it like to have these filmmakers at Grey Gardens filming your day-to-day life?

Jerry Torre: 32:21

Tony Brad. I thought they were students, say, from New York University, learning how to make a movie or something. I didn't know they were big shots.

Tony Maietta: 32:32

You thought they were student filmmakers.

Jerry Torre: 32:34

I thought they were learning how to use a camera making film. They had been there before with Lee, who was Jackie's sister. I didn't know that for years. I didn't know that for at least I didn't know that For at least a year. But here's what happens. How should I describe Albert and David? They were total gentlemen. Albert was if you didn't hear from him it was because he was forever behind this bazooka of a camera that was bigger than he was and you could only see his little feet moving around behind it. He was a trip I loved. Al David had the recording device strapped to his body and with this fuzzy thing recording, recording and very quiet otherwise.

Jerry Torre: 33:16

They showed up with Lee Redswell big deal to do a film about her life as a Bvier in his childhood, as a bouvier. I think the setting was going to be montauk. Uh, truman capote was out there that summer and mick jagger was frolicking in the waves with uh lee. Yes, he and she went to put peter. I didn't meet Peter, but he was also part of that moment. Four days they came by just from filming. Lee told us she wanted her aunt to narrate the film because the aunt had a very classic voice and I didn't know anything. Okay fine, and they just said what do I do from anything? Okay fine, and I just said what do I do? I made gin gimlets with no ice on the front porch with Rose's lime juice. It had an aluminum card table set up on the front porch and I would make gin gimlets for Edie and Mrs Beale. We hardly had any ice that summer morning, but Lee didn't want my drinks.

Tony Maietta: 34:25

I wasn't making so the Maisels shot for about three weeks, is that?

Jerry Torre: 34:32

right no, four days, four days.

Tony Maietta: 34:34

No, no, no, no. The film itself, the actual film Grey Gardens. After Lee put her home movie aside and the Maisels contacted the Beales to come back and film again, this time a movie just about them, correct? They were at gray gardens with you filming the film gray gardens for about three weeks, is that correct?

Jerry Torre: 34:55

I was thinking it was. Now that you're saying three weeks, I think it was more like seven weeks. Okay, yeah, they came back in the fall too, to film. That's right. That's right. That's right In the summer.

Tony Maietta: 35:07

The main part was three weeks. Oh yeah, was there anything? I don't know how to say this, I'm just going to ask it. There were a lot of visitors that came to Grey Gardens during this time. There was one visitor who came in particular the day the Maisels weren't there, which I think was on purpose, but we can talk about that some other time. Yeah, can you tell us a little bit about that very special visitor who showed up one of the days the Maisels weren't there?

Jerry Torre: 35:34

Oh, mrs Anastas, she was. I used to smoke cigarettes, gentlemen. No more, 30 years ago. Anyway. I'm having a cigarette in front porch. I dare not light a cigarette in the mansion. One, I wouldn't light a cigarette in front of Mrs Buley. Two, it's disrespectful and the fire issue of fire. So my rule with myself was to smoke on the front porch, and I did. But this day I was having a cigarette. I painted some of the railing on the post around the front porch. I'm painting, stop, have a cigarette.

Jerry Torre: 36:11

And I look up to the road. Brooks had cut a little path of the lawnmower. And I look and I see a woman get out of a car with a man holding the door and I said, oh, another pain in the ass. Curiosity seeker, just like I was. I was the same person, but it wasn't really in the mood to tell them to leave the property, which I had to do in the past. But this was an adult. Well, this adult walked down Brooks's crisscross path and I swear I will never forget it.

Jerry Torre: 36:45

I'm looking and I see the woman that I remember from television in Brooklyn when her husband was assassinated in the car and we were told to go home from Catholic school. Sister Aquinata was my nun and she said everyone go home, the president has been shot and pray for him. We did. We went home, the TV was on black and white and I remember seeing Mrs Onassis in the television scene and here I am, fellas, looking, and it's the same person walking towards me, towards this mansion, and I said this is not possible. How on earth is this happening? And Edie opens the bedroom window on the boy's side and screams at me don't let her in here, jerry, she's not welcome and you're not going to be welcome. And I said well, I want to make a nice impression. I look like a dirt bomb to begin with. I have a dirty sweatshirt on and Mrs Onassis is walking towards me. I'm really aware who she is and Edie's acting like a banshee over there in the window, behind the screen.

Jerry Torre: 37:55

But she didn't look at me right away. She took off her big sunglasses, she took them off and she gazed across the peak of the mansion over towards the master bedroom. I could, I watched everything. I watched her expressions. She gazed at the mansion and went back and gazed again and then looked at the window. Edie was still screaming out the window and she looked at me and she extended her right hand and I instinctively knew to be very polite because I wasn't anyway, and I she put her hand and I grabbed her fingers, four fingers, and I embraced them and she said you must be, jerry. My aunt and cousin have grown very fond of you. They trust you. In fact we're all surprised that you're even here, allowed in the mansion. I understand you stay over at times, monk. I was just yeah, I do. What do I say now?

Brad Shreve: 38:58

You must have been bowled over that Jackie O knew who you were.

Jerry Torre: 39:01

Which I was, because Lee had told her Lee was her sister. She had been there, I don't know, maybe a month or five weeks earlier that summer. See, lee knew my name and everything and she knew how I made liquor drinks.

Tony Maietta: 39:15

No, she knew how I made drinks.

Jerry Torre: 39:19

I was a terrible bartender, but Lee was polite, and so was Mrs Onassis, and that's how I believe she understood who I was, knew my name.

Tony Maietta: 39:27

I think the interesting thing about that too is Edie's reaction. Not welcome, jackie. Thank you so much for all the help you've given us, but don't let her in it's a real animosity on Edie's part towards Jackie wasn't there Jerry?

Jerry Torre: 39:45

Well, I felt that they were stressed out. Not Mrs Onassis, but Edie was really competitive, like I'd been used to her being competitive towards me and even the delivery guy with the food. He would come from Newtown Grocer. She would sometimes I don't know what her issue was she would be very competitive. Where he left the groceries, did he pick up the check? This energy was the same with Mrs Onassis Not so much Mrs Onassis who was completely a lady and did.

Jerry Torre: 40:19

Finally, and she and Edie went off to the front of the library area of the porch and had a powwow over there. I was so glad. I was glad they both went over there because I was like sweating and nervous and I didn't know what to make of myself, how I looked. They went over to the front of the library windows and they yapped and yapped and I stood there right where I met her. I didn't move from that pub, that place I stood, and afterwards Edie dashed upstairs, slams the door, mrs Onassis returns to me and gives me some instructions and I was a bit more calm now. Although I didn't light a cigarette, I was still calm and she said here's what we need to do, and I just listened. What do I do?

Brad Shreve: 41:08

So I think it's important for those that may have seen the 2009 film, the HBO film that had Drew Barrymore and Jessica Lange In that movie, the scene with Jackie. It was very cordial and you're saying that is not true.

Jerry Torre: 41:22

No, I need to be judgmental and I'm going to tell you always the truth. Someone named Kent called me two Sundays in a row, before the film was decided upon, to gather information from me about the mansion and Edie and Mrs Beale, including what doors were there. Were there leaded glass in the doors? Everything and more. It seemed like a script was being read and I was reciting back to the answers that he was asking me. This went on for two weeks. I was a real schmuck. I didn't know that I was being played. This is the facts.

Jerry Torre: 42:04

I told this fellow exactly the truth. What I just told to you about Mrs Arnaz's arriving, the sweatshirt, the cigarettes putting the cigarette out in the grass, edie's behavior at the window All of that was candid fact. It didn't show up in the film but simply said Brad and Tony. No one was there but I. No one saw or spoke to Mrs Onassis except for myself and Edie. Mrs Beale didn't enter the picture. Mrs Onassis did not go into the mansion and she did not have a favorable feeling of it wasn't comfortable.

Tony Maietta: 42:47

Not only that, Jerry, you weren't, even you weren't in the film I mean they totally took the stories that you gave them and dismissed you from the, from the film. So I I mean that's you know? Yeah, well, that's that's, that's, that's, that's hurtful. How insulted I was, and you have every right to be. That's why I'm glad in the book we can kind of set the record straight about what happened with that.

Jerry Torre: 43:09

Thank you.

Tony Maietta: 43:11

I want to just loop around about Edie's paranoia, Because we had talked about. You know she was very jealous of Jackie, very paranoid, Paranoid when the people from Newtown Grocers came.

Jerry Torre: 43:22

Well, the one person, the delivery guy.

Tony Maietta: 43:24

Right, but what was your reaction seeing the film for the first time and seeing Edie's what Edie said about you on screen?

Jerry Torre: 43:34

Thank you. When I first saw the film and it was all very excited and well, I was excited, but there was a scene that really did hurt my feelings that I finally addressed to Edie. It was in the attic. Edie's referring to some books that were moved around. I know the raccoons did play moving things around, they just did. And she said who's been moving books around? Someone's been up in the attic. But I said to Edie after I saw the film Edie, I saw that portion of the film where she asked the Maisels, who's been moving books up here? And I said you know that scene.

Jerry Torre: 44:17

It really hurt my feelings. I know you, you know me, you trust me. I don't ask you for any money, I want to be friends with you. You know me, you trust me. I don't ask you for any money, I want to be friends with you. I had thought we were, but your speaking made me feel like you didn't trust me and I don't know why you would say that and it really hurt my feelings. I'm saying this to Edie and she turns to me and turns and says well, what do you think of this outfit? She just dismissed my feelings. I said, oh, forget it, you know, she just dismissed how I felt about that scene. It was unfair. She wasn't nice to me in that scene.

Brad Shreve: 45:01

I can totally get why that would be hurtful. I mean, I can't imagine anybody not being hurt by that. But, was it surprising knowing Edie.

Jerry Torre: 45:10

No, she played to the camera. She liked the drama of a camera. So there were books over there and over there and a few things in the attic that were upset because the raccoons made nests up there. They tore apart paintings and made nests out of the canvas. Was that unusual for Edie? No, was that unusual for Edie? No, she would make a mountain out of a molehill, just to accentuate her style of being the theater, the actress no.

Tony Maietta: 45:43

What about the washing machine, Jerry? What about the washing machine?

Jerry Torre: 45:48

Oh, Jesus, he's Sally, the old man. I call him then a little bit. His housekeeper, charlotte, says hmm, selling the mansion.

Tony Maietta: 46:00

This is Mr Getty, mr Getty's, mr Getty's, mr Getty's housekeeper, charlotte. Yeah, that's right, go ahead.

Jerry Torre: 46:07

Right, and you know, his chauffeur's name was Schaefer Schaefer, his chauffeur. Well, if you need to know that, well, that's just a fact.

Tony Maietta: 46:21

But there's a very famous scene in the film Grey Gardens where Edie is clearly perturbed because you gave them a washing machine. So can you just give us a little bit of background about that washing machine story?

Jerry Torre: 46:31

The house was going to be put on the market for sale and the old man was fixing up the kitchen and the pantry and everything. They put a new washing machine in. He got rid of the old one. Charlotte said help yourself to the washing machine. He said why don't you bring it down to the cat lady's house? Oh, that's what they called, mrs Bielele, the cat lady's. I said that's a good idea. So I did. I put on the furniture dolly and pulled it down Lily Pond Lane and it was a scandal of the year, like all these fancy-ass cars driving up past me. The windows opened a little bit. There was just a sneer at me like, oh, the peasant is here, the peon is carrying, pulling a washing machine down Lily Pond Lane and I looked like peon because I didn't care. And they made fun of everything we did there and even in the supermarket. You know, oh, you have fleas on you. Don't go near me, stuff like that the townspeople.

Jerry Torre: 47:33

The point is I drugged the washing machine to Mrs Bill and Edie's home, drug it into the kitchen, put it in there and set it up so we could handle hot water. But wash clothes. I had hoped I did wash my sweatshirt, cold water and some jeans. It was a gift to improve the situation in the mansion. Maybe we could clean some of these clothes or wash some of these blankets, towels, even like my pants too. But he played that as if I was being, I don't know, moving in cementing the deal. Cement, what deal? I'd already been there. What are you talking about? He says that cements the deal. He'll be here for another 10 years. I'll be damned if I watch Washington Machine.

Tony Maietta: 48:25

So it's just that these kinds of things happen. These kinds of things happened a lot with Edie, with her level of paranoia with you, and I always want to express to people what I know about you is the fact that you only had the best intentions ever with the Beals, because you love these two women. They were your surrogate family right, I do, and your aim was only to help them and unfortunately, edie playing for the camera or Edie just being slightly a paranoid person, blew that kind of stuff out of proportion. So I just wanted to settle the record on that particular point. Thank you.

Jerry Torre: 49:05

Thank you.

Jerry Torre: 49:07

It's very clear and that's the point you made. Very clear. That's exactly as it had been. Edie would play up to the camera, no matter who was the victim who was to be portrayed. It was either myself or not Brooks. So much because Brooks was sort of in the background and Mrs Beale she was always on the block. Edie was always after Mrs Beale. I got to get out of this goddamn house. I'm not there. Blah, blah, blah and Mrs Beale, they would pick her for the. They would start a debate at 11 o'clock at night. It would go on until 3 in the morning. They'd wake up and continue. I'd say, no, I've got to go to sleep, bye. And I'd go downstairs, sleep on, my arm be cut, but they would just pick her. I think they loved it. I think it was their way of staying alive. I mean it.

Tony Maietta: 50:01

Yeah, entertaining each other.

Jerry Torre: 50:03

Yeah, that's right, they were one of a kind indeed, but the washing machine was sort of like oh you're not going to give me a hard time about it, I just drug this down a quarter mile to the house. And you're saying this to Albert. Well, I'm pulverized by this new event. What pulverized? I wanted to yell at her later, but I never brought it up. I did not. You know, I'm sort of used to ED bringing things up against people. I was not there for any other reason but to help period, that's all. And she knew that. I know she did, but she liked being the actress. You know.

Brad Shreve: 50:43

So you said that Edie, little Edie played it up for the camera. But I'm thinking of the scene where Big Edie is singing Two for Tea.

Jerry Torre: 50:52

Tea for Two.

Brad Shreve: 50:56

Tea for Two. Yes, it looked to me like she was playing up for the camera. Is that true? Or is that just something that she would break into the song?

Jerry Torre: 51:01

No, she wasn't playing for the camera, she was reminiscing about her past in vivid, as best of detail as she could muster. Mrs Beale was very passionate about singing and I loved her for that. But in that scene I was standing in the corridor. She was singing tea for two in the music, in the orchestra, in the show on Broadway. She was so alive in that moment, so excited to be alive. She was just doing her best to sing tea for two, as she had sung it in her youth, and she lost. Yeah, and you know what I was so touched by. She went into that portion where she lost it. There were the lyrics.

Tony Maietta: 51:48

It was a little too high for her. Yeah, yeah.

Jerry Torre: 51:50

She lost the lyrics and then she just said, oh and happy we would be. That was authentic, everything about her. She, sir, truly loved singing and tried her best in that scene to sing, but she lost her way. You know what?

Tony Maietta: 52:08

um, so, jerry, what? What I kind of want to talk about the, the filming's over and and and what to you? What is the legacy of this film in your life? I guess I want to say Does that make sense? Obviously, you've come full circle, a lot with this story and being a part of this iconic film, it's a part of film history. What has Grey Gardens meant to you in your life? The film, not necessarily the beals and your relationship with them, but what has the film meant for you or done for you, good or bad?

Jerry Torre: 52:42

well, what it's done for me is it? It makes it clear that a life so unusual was lived. I couldn't have explained this to to you or Brad, if it wasn't for the film. I went to my brother's wedding trying to explain it to the people in the party the wedding party and they thought either I was drinking too much or I just didn't know what I was talking about. This is the stuff of fiction.

Jerry Torre: 53:07

Yeah, they said you mean to tell me they're related to who and they lived where and how they live in this mansion. Go smoke another joint or something like that. I mean it was hard to explain. I haven't actually Brad and Tony. I hadn't actually given up on trying to explain this history of my life for years. I didn't have a copy of the film, I didn't write a book, I had it all stored here in my mind and heart. But to explain it, trying to keep it simply understood, it was nearly impossible. If it wasn't for the film, it wouldn't be possible. Would you understand this? If it wasn't for the film, come on.

Tony Maietta: 53:49

You wouldn't get it, I couldn't even know.

Jerry Torre: 53:52

I wouldn't be able to explain it thoroughly, accurately as I have. How did it? What did it do for me in my life? It gave me the courage to my own convictions, to live by my own rules and be who I am, no matter what. You know, I so admired Edie for her devotion to her mother. They suffered crazy winters they didn't have to, but they wouldn't give in to the family's dictates to sell the mansion, to live in a cottage somewhere. They thought the Bahamas would be suitable. But Mrs Beale said no, I'm not surrendering my home for money. I'm a bouvier, she'd say to me. No one's ever taken from me anything I did not want to give and she was very stubborn, very proud, and I admired that about her. What did it take away from this film? It's influenced my life in the arts, in the theater, literature. I became a sculptor and presently I'm showing my work at the Museum of Modern Art here in New York City starting May. Believe it all the years of carving stone.

Jerry Torre: 55:10

My work will be seen in the Museum of Modern Art. I still can't believe I'm saying that to you. I mean, it's a fact. They came here two weeks ago interviewed me the art students league I'm talking about me too much, never mind.

Tony Maietta: 55:26

No, no, no, I'm so glad you're mentioning it because you should mention it and you should be proud of it because you're an incredibly talented sculptor. Because you should mention it and you should be proud of it because you're an incredibly talented sculptor. And it kind of brings you full circle back to your nickname of the Marble Fawn, because you work in marble and stone. Edie's prediction about a terrible tragedy befalling you that she says in the film clearly did not come true. You are thriving in your life, which I love. The fact that you took so much of your cues for your life from the Beals and the positive attitude they instilled in you in the most ridiculous of circumstances.

Jerry Torre: 56:01

Amen, I did. And I remember well Mrs Beals saying to me. We're downstairs in the vestibule Just after a birthday party. Mrs Beals said in your lifetime many people will be interested in our friendship. And I said well, I'm interested in our friendship. I've got to help you up the stairs right now. Then, another time Mrs Beale said to me oh no, I said to Mrs Beale, you know, you're a very interesting person and the estate is very interesting. Someone should come along and make a movie or paint a painting or write a book about you. And Mrs Beale chuckled. But she said she said to me that and I have this written beautiful thing. Mrs Beale wrote to me about my future, wishing me well and everything. But her predictions were fairly accurate. She said find what you love and pursue it, because you'll be good at what you do. And I loved Stonework and I did. I do still carve. So now.

Jerry Torre: 57:04

I love it.

Brad Shreve: 57:06

What I think is interesting is, when you made this film, we didn't know about streaming Streaming.

Tony Maietta: 57:11

Movies on TV, like on TV, like Apple and Netflix.

Brad Shreve: 57:16

So you thought these were college film students, so I presume you had no idea that 50 years later people could pick up the remote and watch you on television at any time At age 17. I just got a cell phone.

Jerry Torre: 57:29

Brad. Well, it meant the world to me because, mrs Beale, regardless of how you may perceive the Beales the perception of them being untidy and not good housekeepers, for sure but they had integrity. They just did and they instilled that onto me. No one ever took from me what I've ever wanted to me. They never, never let what Ms Beale said. No one ever took from me what I've ever wanted, never wanted to give.

Tony Maietta: 57:57

I think what's beautiful is in their lifetime, when they were alive, you were their caretaker of their house, grey Gardens, and after they're gone, you're now the caretaker of the film Grey Gardens and the legacy, which I think is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Brad Shreve: 58:19

Brad, was there anything else that you wanted to discuss with our illustrious guest? No, I just want to. Jerry, thank you for being with us today. A fascinating story has made even more fascinating talking to you.

Jerry Torre: 58:24

Very happy to be with you, tony Brad. I'm very happy that we're friends now. I met you Really really good Thank you, jerry.

Tony Maietta: 58:32

Thank you, Jerry, for our friends in the New York City area. I just want to say that Jerry will be doing a book signing of our book the Marble Fawn of Grey Gardens at MoMA on June 29th from 3 to 5 pm. So if you get a chance, first of all go see his sculpture, because it's fantastic. It's available at MoMA PS1 through October 14th and also the Situations Gallery through July 24th, and I will put all of this information in the show notes, so just check that out. But if you do get the opportunity to see Jerry's sculpture, it is fantastic and I guarantee you you will not be disappointed. Thanks.