Classic Hollywood #101: Our "Lost" Pilot

Tony Maietta:

Hi everybody, this is Tony. I hope you are all getting by. Brad and I decided to take a little break this week but fear not, we will be back next week for a handful of new episodes to wrap up our first season of Going Hollywood. I'm very excited about that. And I'm excited about this episode today because we decided to present a little flashback for you to my second appearance on Brad's podcast, Queer We Are. I like to think of it as the lost pilot of Going Hollywood. Because, as with Going Hollywood, it's completely unscripted. Brad throws subjects at me and I do the best I can. So, I hope you'll enjoy, this special flashback episode of Going Hollywood - the lost pilot. And we'll be sure to see you next week as we begin the countdown to Going Hollywood's season finale. Take care everybody.

Tony Maietta:

Hello. I'm film historian, Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:

And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:

And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:

As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:

Tony Maietta, I am so thrilled to have you back.

Tony Maietta:

Well, it's great to be back. I'm I'm I'm so excited to talk Again, that was a lot of fun. Our our our LucyFest, our own very our very own LucyFest.

Brad Shreve:

And I was gonna tell I have gotten so much great feedback on other episodes. I have never gotten as much Wonderful feedback as I did with you.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, that's I love that. I love that. It's Lucy. It ain't me. It ain't me, Brad. Well It's Lucy.

Brad Shreve:

Let's talk about your latest. 

Tony Maietta:

Okay. 

Brad Shreve:

I got the email that said that your latest documentary on Cary Grant had come out.

Tony Maietta:

Yes.

Brad Shreve:

And I haven't got around to watching it, and I'm actually glad I didn't because I wanna talk about it instead

Tony Maietta:

Okay.

Brad Shreve:

Without knowing anything about it. So

Tony Maietta:

Tell me about it?

Brad Shreve:

Go for it. To what what what should we know about Cary Grant? And is there something we don't know that we should know?

Tony Maietta:

Well, first of all, it was exciting when they asked me to do Cary Grant. Again, I do these documentaries with this wonderful production company called Wichita Films. It's, 2 French producers named Julia and Clara Kuperberg. And one of the wonderful and frustrating things about these documentaries is is they're not because they're a French production company, you know, they're in they're seen in France. They're seen in Germany. I get emails from Australia, but they're not they're kind of difficult to find here in the US unless they're playing a film festival, which hopefully will will change. The so I put them a lot of them on my YouTube, channel, which is just my name. And the Cary Grant one was one that we did last year, and I'm just starting to put on my YouTube.

Tony Maietta:

And I was thrilled to do it because He's my favorite. Really, I mean, when I think about actors of the quote, unquote golden age, it's, you know, it's always it's always Cary Grant. Cary Grant and Spencer Tracy, I think are my two. I have a million actresses I love. You know? A gay man doesn't. But, as far as as actors go, it's It's gotta be Cary Grant and Spencer Tracy. So it was a real thrill to talk about Cary Grant. I think that, you know, we focused on his career. Everybody Everybody asked me when they heard I was doing it, are you gonna talk about him being gay? Are you gonna talk about his bisexual? And I was like, you know, no.

Tony Maietta:

Probably not because That's not what this is about. This is about his career. His life is infinitely interesting just in his career as Cary Grant

Brad Shreve:

Yeah.

Tony Maietta:

Than it was for anything that he did in his private life. And I have a real issue with speculation. You know, when I first started out and I was doing DVD commentaries, and I was doing, stuff for Warner Home Video and CBS. My partner and I at the time when we were writing these In our books, we had to triple check facts. We there was a legal department that we would have to answer to. And if they didn't like something, we had to prove it. We Decide it. You know? No.

Tony Maietta:

It was said here. It was said here. Doesn't even happen anymore. Anybody can put anything they want on YouTube, And people think it's, you know, it's the truth. So, when we start talking about somebody's personal life, I have a hard time in saying Point blank. Somebody's this and somebody's that because I need some kind of justification. I need some kind of certification that, oh, this was set. Now there are some books out there.

Tony Maietta:

Orry Kelly, Who was a very famous costume designer in the forties, in the golden age, worked at Warner Brothers. He Wrote an autobiography that was discovered actually after he died in which he talks about his relationship with Cary Grant. You know, there are some books out there which talk about That, I didn't feel like it was anything that we needed to talk about because I found his his career so fascinating. Here's another thing too. When people come up and they say, you know, was Cary gay? Was he bisexual? And I'm I'm like, you can't take our 21st century ideals of sexuality and superimpose them On early 20th century. Now interestingly, the kids today, if I can call them that, the kids today have the right idea. There's no labels. There's no box.

Tony Maietta:

It's whatever you happen to be attracted to or whatever attracts you. You know, they're more they're they don't believe in those rigid, gay, straight, this, that. So that's kind of what it was like in his day, in the early 20th century, you know, Hepburn for is a great example. You know, Hepburn had many relationships with women and with men, But she never would have considered herself a lesbian.

Brad Shreve:

Right.

Tony Maietta:

Because that's that would not have occurred to her. She was Katharine Hepburn. She was herself. So with him, what I always like to say about Cary Grant and how I what I think of the essence of when people ask me that question is that, you know, Cary Grant wasn't interested primarily in men. Cary Grant wasn't interested primarily in women. Cary Grant was interested primarily in Cary Grant. So whatever configuration of that was going to propel that goal forward was where he was. Now when he was starting out in the twenties in New York in the theater and he was still Archie Leech, You know, the theater now then, always, hopefully, is a very gay place with a lot of very powerful gay men.

Tony Maietta:

So it's perfectly understandable to think that he would have had some liaisons with some gay men. He's had some gay relationships back then. But when he got to Hollywood, particularly in the thirties, once the production code came into a force and he could be fired. You know, he had morality clause in his contract. All stars had morality clauses in their contracts After the production code kicked in, he could lose his job if they even suspected. They didn't have to prove it. If there was a there was a a rumor, if there was an idea of immorality, you could lose a job. So at that time, he became you know, he was also Cary Grant by this time, so he had a lot more to to protect.

Tony Maietta:

So I I feel like he is so multifaceted. There are so many Cary Grants, and yet there's that one image we have of him. And I just find him endlessly fascinating as Cary Grant regardless of who he chose to to go home with at night.

Brad Shreve:

And I'm gonna pull away from Cary Grant for a moment because you just said something that really clicked with me because I recently saw Sunset Boulevard for probably the 10 thousandth time. No. And Hedda Hopper is on there. And for those of you that don't know who Hedda Hopper is, in her day back in whatever period, she was the premier Hollywood gossip.

Tony Maietta:

Was she and Louella Parsons?

Brad Shreve:

Okay. I've never heard of Louella Parsons.

Tony Maietta:

You never heard of Louella Parsons? She's she's the reason how how Heather Hopper exists, but go ahead. I interrupted.

Brad Shreve:

So what I'm curious is you hear a lot back then that a lot of stuff was purposely made up either with Heta's approval or just fed to Heta Because they felt like it doesn't matter what you're gonna talk to Star as long as we get them in the moonlight. Is there truth to that?

Tony Maietta:

You mean things were made up just to get them in the papers?

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. May like a hint. Like, maybe they were having an affair or may

Tony Maietta:

Oh, well, there was a lot. Yeah. There were always blind items. Heta was, Yeah. Head, the first one was Louella. Louella Parsons was the very first, quote, unquote, gossip columnist. I actually have a video on them on my YouTube page if you wanna watch it.

Brad Shreve:

Go watch his whole YouTube channel. You won't be bored for a second.

Tony Maietta:

It's called Gossip Ladies. It's great. It's about Heta and Louella. So Hedda was created as a response. Heta was actually an actress. She was an actress in silent era and in the twenties, And she was getting older and not having much success. She was also so she supplemented her income by kind of being a ringer For Louella Parsons by kind of giving her information and planting her. And then the moguls, Louis B Mayer and some of the other ones decided, Louella was getting too powerful.

Tony Maietta:

We need to create somebody to rival her. And, you know, as the saying as the saying goes, you know, we've Created a monster here because HETA became huge and caused a lot of problems, and they would put blind items in. Usually, blind items were you wanted to get your name and had us call them because your was good for your career because it meant people were going to see your film. So you had to make your employer happy. So Louis B Mayer would be happy if you got a mention in in his column, favorable mention, Because people then went and see your film. So I feel like with Heta, it became, you know, the the tail wagging the dog, And she would put things in if she didn't like you and she didn't like Cary Grant, basically, because she really couldn't touch him. He was just too big a star. She would put negative things about him in.

Tony Maietta:

In fact, this whole thing about him and Randolph Scott was kind of begun by Hedda Hopper and those infamous non pictures, at their beach house, which are kinda funny. But, you know, they would they would put things in there. There would be blind items, that we get in there and then it would be a way to kinda keep people in control. People in the industry knew who they were talking about. But, you know, your aunt in Des Moines Wouldn't necessarily know who they were talking about. So it was kind of like a checks and balances kind of a thing with them, but they got out of control too. They she destroyed careers. She really did.

Tony Maietta:

Horrible woman. Terrible. She was. She was a horrible woman. She tried to take down Charlie Chaplin. She was a terrible person.

Brad Shreve:

Well, it looked it looked good for her career.

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. Well, she was a she was a rabid anti communist. So to her, anybody who even smelled subversive had to be called out.

Brad Shreve:

Okay. Gotcha. She was part of that whole league.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She was terrible.

Brad Shreve:

So I'm trying to remember, was Louis B Mayer the one that also played himself in Sunset Boulevard?

Tony Maietta:

No. That was Cecil B DeMille.

Brad Shreve:

Okay. Okay.

Tony Maietta:

Because yeah. The whole Gloria Swanson connection. You know, Gloria Swanson Who played famously played Norma Desmond, in that film. It's she was nowhere nothing like Norma Desmond. She was not delusional. She was not vying for a compact. She always worked. She was always doing something, whether it be theater, whether she designed clothes.

Tony Maietta:

But there were a lot of little Easter eggs from her career that were placed into Sunset Boulevard. Kind of like an in joke that Billy Wilder would put in. Cecil B DeMille was one of Gloria Swanson's most famous directors. Eric von Stroheim, who played Max, directed Gloria Swanson famously in a film called Queen Kelly, which pretty which almost destroyed her career because it was So overindulgent in so long, it was never even released in its era. So the the Eric von Stroheim bit, the Cecil b DeMille bit, All echoes of Gloria Swanson's career. The scene where they're playing gin, and you have some silent film stars including Buster Keaton, You know, people that Gloria Swanson knew. So Billy Wilder did some really fun little Easter eggs with Gloria Swanson's career in that movie, Which make it all the more fascinating, I think.

Brad Shreve:

Well, what's funny, for years years, I thought this as much as I enjoyed the film, I'm, like, This is kinda of a bad camp film. I had no idea that that was the way it was made to be, that it was supposed to be a fight.

Tony Maietta:

Well, I don't know if it was made to be camp. It was made to be an indictment of what Hollywood did to its former stars. You know? And Billy Wilder got A lot of flack from that. Louis b Mayer said to him, I think, after one of the screenings I don't know. I don't think it was the premiere, but, you know, Louis B Mayer, head of MGM, Famously said to him, you'll never work again, which is kind of a ludicrous thing to say. If you're Billy Wilder and you already have a couple Oscars, You're gonna work.

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. And he was shown wrong.

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. He was found very wrong. I mean, movie mare was out within a matter of years, and Billy Wilder went on, You know, for decades after that. But it was it was the first time Hollywood took a really Discerning, scathing look at itself, and really got a lot of flack for it. It's only become campy because you know, what is camp? That's that big that's that's the big question. Right? Camp it's only become campy as we've removed ourselves from that time. You know? And then we we don't Film acting isn't like that anymore. Film acting is, you know, put a camera on you or put a phone on you, and you're basically in a film.

Tony Maietta:

So there's a there's a stylization to silent film. There's a stylization to early talkies, and there's a stylization to that period where Sunset Boulevard is, but we just don't. It look it seems like over the top to us. So I think that's why how it became camp. And it's a camp character. I mean, you know, you can't go around that. I mean, Norma Desmond. Dear god, Carol Burnett did an amazing takeoff on her.

Brad Shreve:

Was that one one where she had the high pitched voice? Like, how come you never made it into talkies?

Tony Maietta:

I don't no. I don't think that was I don't think that was the Norma Norma Desmond one. Carol Burnett's character was named Nora Desmond. And Gloria Swanson, god love her, Was in on the joke. She guest starred on the Carol Burnett Show a few times and loved Carol Burnett's take off on her. So, Yeah. It's definitely it's definitely become a camp classic. But, like, All About Eve is another one, same year as a matter of fact.

Tony Maietta:

You know, they were up against each other for the Oscar. In Bette Davis, god love her being Bette Davis, thought she deserved it, but Bette Davis always thought she deserved it. And usually she did, but I don't know about that particular race. But, I mean, All About Eve is also a camp classic, And it doesn't have it doesn't have nearly the same kind of embellishments that Sunset Boulevard does, but it's a different style that we're looking back at. I mean, that's the way I that's the way I look at it.

Brad Shreve:

So what is it about Cary Grant? Why does he fascinate you?

Tony Maietta:

I think because he was I mean, when you think movie star, I think you think Cary Grant. I think Cary Grant. You know, I think he was number Bogart's number 1, I think, in the AFI list. And I don't put that much stock in the list, but, you know, okay. I think Grant was number 2. And this is also, by the way, a man who never won an Oscar. Now here's the mind blowing thing about that is Cary Grant could do anything. Cary Grant was a brilliant physical comedian because he was an acrobat.

Tony Maietta:

So physical comedy, brilliant verbal comedy. I mean, His girl Friday, he and Russell and Russell going at each other, a brilliant dramatic actor. All you have to do is watch notorious With Ingrid Bergman or any of his Hitchcock movies, he wasn't so great at musicals.

Brad Shreve:

I can

Tony Maietta:

give you that, but he could carry a tune. He didn't do that many of them. He was he was like a he was a complete actor. Never won an Oscar, was only nominated for 2, and they were both for dramatic roles. He never got Think of it. This man didn't win for bringing a baby, which is like the ultimate screwball comedy in my opinion, or the awful truth, which is a brilliant, brilliant, funny, funny movie. He didn't get nominated for North by Northwest. He didn't get nominated for charade.

Tony Maietta:

I mean, these are big movies. These are like the benchmarks of classic film. And he could do them all and do them with such ease. He made it look so Easy. And I think that's the genius of Cary Grant was no matter what genre he was in, whether it be suspense with Hitchcock, screwball comedy with Hepburn, drama with Ingrid Bergman. He made it look so easy. It was just natural to him. And to me, that's That's film acting.

Tony Maietta:

That's that's the essence of film acting in the golden era. And that's why I find it fascinating. Plus, he's Probably the most beautiful human being on the face of the earth at that particular time. I mean, my god. He was a gorgeous man.

Brad Shreve:

But speaking of what you just said, North by Northwest is not one of my favorite Hitchcock films, but I do like it. And Cary was excellent in it. And then I just recently saw bringing a baby for the 1st time this year. They are 2 entirely different people, and he did them both brilliantly.

Tony Maietta:

Doing brilliantly. Well, there were so many facets to him, I mean, which speaks a lot for his why his personal life is so turbulent. You know, he had a very turbulent purse he could never quite marry Archie Leech, which was what he was born, Bristol a poor Bristol boy without a mother and a absent father to Cary Grant, This character he created, this persona that he created, which, you know, he famously said everybody wants to be Cary Grant, even I wanna be Cary and it's true. It was an unreachable goal, but he could do anything. Bringing a baby, You know, you have to love screwball. And it bringing a baby is one of those movies you kinda have to give yourself over to. You just have to enter that world of lunacy. And once you do, it's the most wonderful, joyous experience.

Tony Maietta:

And I love North by Northwest. It's probably my favorite of his movies Because he's really the complete Cary Grant in that. He's got he's funny in it. He does slapstick when he comes out of the bed In the train compartment, he is romantic, God knows, with Eva Marie Saint. There's action in the cornfield, you know, when the plane's coming Oh, yeah. I mean, it's it's truly the man could do everything and make it look so easy. You know, you couldn't put Carrie Grant you couldn't put, Clark Gable in Bringing Up Baby. You know, you couldn't put Gary Cooper In bringing a baby.

Tony Maietta:

Well, maybe you could. Gary Cooper was pretty good at screwball comedy. But, you know, not as easily as you could plug Cary Grant in. And again, this man never won an Oscar, nominated twice.

Brad Shreve:

Well, you mentioned Humphrey Bogart, and I loved Bogart in the Maltese Falcon. I enjoyed Casablanca. I will say I think it's overrated. 

Tony Maietta:

You wouldn't be alone.

Brad Shreve:

But he really didn't have a whole lot of range.

Tony Maietta:

No. He played Humphrey Bogart. I mean, he played he played this character that

Brad Shreve:

What's the same the one with, Kate Hepburn there on the

Tony Maietta:

African Queen.

Brad Shreve:

Same same thing. He was the same character.

Tony Maietta:

The other thing about Bogart was He was working he worked for a very long time before he became a star. I mean, when you think about, really Casablanca, Maltese Falcon, High Sierra was his 1st big splash, and he'd been working in films for at least a decade before then. I mean, he's in dark victory with Bette Davis as a stable hand. You know, Petrified Forest, which was one of his big Broadway, his when a big Broadway hit for him, he did the film, and it didn't even make his didn't make him a huge star like these other ones did. He came that to that persona so late in life and at the exact right time. That kind of cynical antihero was perfect for 1941, 1942 when we were in the war. So it kind of exploded. And then when he really became Humphrey Bogart was after he died.

Tony Maietta:

And, you know, college kids in the sixties rediscovered these films and made him this cult antihero because that persona also spoke to them. What were they saying? They were saying don't trust anyone over 30, you know, with the Vietnam War and everything. And that's that's Bogart's persona. Is this cynical yet romantic antihero? I personally you know, I think I think Bogart's fantastic, but I think You're right. He doesn't very often stray from that persona. He does on some films, but there's still that element of the cynicism. There's that an element of mistrust and humor with his characters. He's he's he's very much but that's what they did.

Tony Maietta:

You know, that's what they did in the golden age, quote, unquote, is you were playing your persona. You know, as much as I've been waxing on about how Cary Grant could do anything, when he tried to stray out of that persona of Cary Grant, It was a failure. You know, his one of his Oscar nominations was for none but the lonely heart, which is a Clifford o which Clifford Odets wrote. And he plays He basically plays who he really could have been in real life, which is a bitter, angry cockney, who comes home after having a life of of, You know, ill repute and has a very bad reconciliation with his mother. And he was not Cary Grant in that film. He was Angry and mean, and it was a huge flop. It's it's much better today because we're today, we understand people going outside of their persona to to play a role. But back then, they were like, no.

Tony Maietta:

Where's I want the awful truth, Cary Grant. I want the Philadelphia story, Cary Grant. This guy isn't charming. Guy doesn't have a cocktail. This guy isn't you know, this is not the Cary Grant I wanna see. So they all had to kind of stay within the parameters their personas.

Brad Shreve:

Well, Jimmy Stewart was always Jimmy Stewart.

Tony Maietta:

Always. Yeah. And I'm not a huge, It's probably not a good thing to say. I don't think anybody cares anymore. I'm not a huge Jim Jimmy Stewart fan. I know people love Jimmy Stewart. Jimmy Stewart, I like him in some things. I love him in The Shop Around the Corner.

I think he's wonderful. I like him in his earlier work. I'm not a big Jimmy Stewart. I wouldn't Necessarily watch a Jimmy Stewart film because it doesn't do a thing for me. Personally, I don't really think there's anything, wow. That's great. I would much rather watch, obviously, watch a Cary Grant or watch even a John Garfield or somebody who was who had interesting facets to their personality. But Jimmy Stewart was a star for, you know

Brad Shreve:

Oh, he's huge.

Tony Maietta:

60 years. Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:

There's 3 films that I really like him in. I obviously, Rear Window. I liked him in Harvey. I thought he played himself, but I think he did a damn good job in Harvey. And the most underrated, I wish more people would see it, Rope, Hitchcock film.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, Rope's wonderful. Rope is fantastic.

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. That's incredible. And I wish more people knew that film existed.

Tony Maietta:

I do too just because it's such a great Roman clef of Leopold and Loeb, and, I mean, there's They're gay. These are 2, clearly, 2 lovers who do this thrill killing. And Hitchcock, You know, in the genius that is Hitchcock, put it in this film and it went way over people's heads. It's a brilliant film. I think probably Rope is My favorite performance of his. I I like Rear Window. He he bothers me. I know it's, you know, it's it's it's probably almost sacrilegious to say Anything negative about Vertigo.

But, I'm not a huge Vertigo fan. I know it's a genius film. I get all that, but it's not for me.

Brad Shreve:

I'm gonna get myself in more trouble. I hate Vertigo.

Tony Maietta:

There you go.

Brad Shreve:

And for me to say I hate a Hitchcock film is bizarre, but I I just don't like vertigo.

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. I just I just find it way too contrived. And I know what Hitchcock was trying to do. I get it. I understand all the theories about it. I I get it. I'd still rather watch North by Northwest. I just would.

Brad Shreve:

Well, I'd rather watch High Anxiety than 

Tony Maietta:

Oh, well, yeah. Well, who wouldn't rather watch High Anxiety? One of my oh my god. That movie. I put it on not long ago, I hadn't seen it. It was a big movie when I was in college. My friends and I would watch High Anxiety and What's Up Doc? And continually quote continually quote from them.

Brad Shreve:

Oh my god. What's up, doc? Don't get me started. Don't get me started. What's up, doc?

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. We would continually quote from them, you know, the drapes and the psychotic game room. I mean, Cloris Leachman was, you know, brilliant brilliant in that. I was fortunate enough to actually do a documentary on on high anxiety. It's on the Blu ray DVDs. I put it on YouTube, but they took it down, which they do occasionally. But to hear them talk about How they created those characters and, like, Cloris Leachman, you know, with the lipstick on her teeth and the voice and the brassiere. I mean, it's just genius, genius film.

Tony Maietta:

Underrated as far as Mel Brooks goes, I think. I'd much prefer it to, Blazing Saddles. Oh, well I like Blazing Saddles.

Brad Shreve:

Blazing Saddles' next to Network is my all time favorite.

Tony Maietta:

Is it really? Yeah. You are a Network fan. I remember you mentioning that before.

Brad Shreve:

Oh my god. I love Network. Genius. Because it all came true.

Tony Maietta:

Right? We're living it now, man. We're living it now.

Brad Shreve:

That is true. This is some people are gonna call but when we talk about Jimmy Stewart playing himself and Bogart playing himself, it reminds me of somebody who's not nearly as talented, but Keanu Reeves is a big star Because they give him films where he Speed, Matrix, The Day the Earth Stood Still.

Tony Maietta:

Sure.

Brad Shreve:

He didn't have to act.

Tony Maietta:

Isn't it? I mean, it really is. Keanu Reeves, I think he's a decent actor. I don't I mean, eventually, you have to be, know, I mean, if you do all these movies, I think he's a decent actor, but he's a movie star. I mean, he's a great example of a movie star. Bette Davis always used to say, you know, When she would talk about she and Joan Crawford, and she didn't talk about it a lot, but people always brought it up to her. And she's like, why? I made 1 film with the broad, everybody wants to know about Joan Crawford, but she would always say that she was an actress and Joan was a movie star. Now Bette Davis was a movie star. I mean, come on.

Tony Maietta:

But she but she had that idea that she was the actress. And Because she stretched because she did the work. She stretched herself. She started in theater. She was trained. So she was the actress. And Joan was the persona of a movie star, and that's I think that still exists today. You're absolutely right.

Tony Maietta:

Keanu Reeves is a great example. You know, you have people who crossover like Meryl Streep, you know, actress, movie star, goddess as far as I'm concerned, But you have people who are strictly like Keanu Reeves and, you know, other people who are movie stars as opposed to movie actors.

Brad Shreve:

When people are looking for new podcasts and come upon choices, odds are good they'll hit play on the one with the most reviews, especially if they're positive. So please head over to Apple Podcasts, iTunes, or whichever app you're using, and let others know about where we are by leaving A review. 

What is it about I'm gonna use Brad Pitt as an example, who I think is a great actor. If you watch,

Tony Maietta:

He is.

Brad Shreve:

The 12 Monkeys, and I'm drawing a blank. There's some movies

Tony Maietta:

I thought he was wonderful in Once Upon A Time in Hollywood. Won the Oscar. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:

And he was actually he was also excellent in, 7? Fight Club.

Tony Maietta:

Fight Club.

Brad Shreve:

I thought he was excellent in all those. Yeah. But most of his movies flop big time. At least my perception is.

Tony Maietta:

No. They did. I I he didn't have a lot of money making films. River Runs Through It. I love A River Runs Through It. It's it's it's a great film. Didn't make any money. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:

Are you asking why why you think they didn't make money?

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. Because another well, why they continue? Because another example I'm gonna give, I told you before, I am madly in love with Paul Rudd.

Tony Maietta:

Yeah.

Brad Shreve:

But 99% of his films are shit. So how does other than he's just charming as hell and and I hear that he's as nice as he comes across, Other than that, how does he continue working?

Tony Maietta:

I mean, Paul Rudd, I think, continues working because he's crafty and talented and Does anything. Does TV? Does film? And I think Brad Pitt is that rare. Brad Pitt is just one of those people who is so Damn gorgeous and charismatic and larger than light that he can do flop after flop after flop, and people still wanna work with him. I think he's I also hear he's a very nice person. I mean, that's don't you can't discount that. You know? People Robert Osborne said that one time. I'll never forget. He said, you know, these people these actors who think they can because they cite Bette Davis or they cite these supposedly, quote, unquote, difficult women, That once you become a movie star, you become difficult.

Tony Maietta:

No. The people that work are the people who other people wanna work with. So 98% of the movie stars maybe were difficult, but the other, you know, percentage of them I'm sorry. 2% of the actors were difficult. 98%. I was wondering about the math there. 98% are people you wanna work with. So People clearly wanna work with Brad Pitt.

George Clooney hasn't had incredible blockbuster films. 

Brad Shreve:

No. 

Tony Maietta:

But, again, George Clooney is George Clooney. It's these, I think people like them. I think people wanna work with them. And it's also, a thing I mean, back in the golden age, You know, it was also very, very indicative of of of Academy Awards. I don't know if it's that much anymore, but people always talk about how Judy Garland was was absolutely robbed for her Oscar for A Star Is Born. Absolutely.

And I I am the 1st in line to say Absolutely. One of the greatest film performances ever. Why didn't she win the Oscar? Why didn't she win the Oscar? Well, there's a factor. One of the reasons was, unfortunately, and I again, you're not gonna find a bigger Garland fan than me. He she was not popular in Hollywood because all the trouble she had, those people had to work with her. Yeah. The people who voted were the people for the Oscar, also people who were kept waiting by her, who she didn't show up, who I mean, The people she put put through the mill. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:

So, you know, that's a huge thing. You have to be people have to want to work with you in order for you to get the offers to work. And I and that's something a factor I think that people don't don't realize about that.

Brad Shreve:

Well, I would think even if they want to work with them just because the prominence that they would get doesn't mean when the the Voting tally comes in that they're gonna give them a nice

Tony Maietta:

Exactly. Check. It's a popularity contest. At the at the end of the day, now it's like a popularity contest and a publicity contest.

Brad Shreve:

Yeah.

Tony Maietta:

But back in the day, I mean, they didn't do the publicity, but there was publicity. But it was still a popularity contest. I mean, there's a reason why Joan Crawford won the Oscar for Mildred Pierce, and she didn't win an Oscar up until 1945 even though she'd been in movies since for 20 years. And, you know, that she didn't win one afterwards. I mean, it's very much popularity. It's very much sentiment. It's very much does this person is this person the way of the future? Is this person, you know, is this person's career just starting out So we have to encourage them, or is there a career ending so we have to give them this final little boost? I'm Geraldine Page is a is a perfect example. You know? Geraldine Page changed my life as an actor.

Tony Maietta:

Seeing Geraldine Page on stage when I was in college changed the way I thought about acting, Changed the way I I thought of myself as an actor. And the woman got her last Her Oscar for primarily as a career achievement. I love Trip to Bountiful. It's an incredible performance, and it was deserving of an Oscar. But she got that Oscar because, you know, she was at the end of her career, and people wanted to say, this is for you. We all admire you so much. You are a goddess to all of us as an actor. So they gave her that because she also didn't win the other 4 times she'd been nominated.

Tony Maietta:

So there's those career capping Oscars too, which are I'm not saying they're not deserved, but that's a factor as well.

Brad Shreve:

I wanna talk about Kate Hepburn because I know you love Kate Hepburn. Oh, good. And I adore her. Absolutely adore Katharine Hepburn.

Tony Maietta:

Glad to talk about it.

Brad Shreve:

This is a little aside, but one of the things that she did, I just thought it was adorable. When she was much older, obviously, she was talking to Phil Donahue in an interview.

Tony Maietta:

She said people watch your show or something like that. She'd know who he was. Right?

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. He said, you don't even know who I am, do you? And she was, no. But I find you fascinating. And that was so Kate Hepburn.

Tony Maietta:

The thing is you probably didn't know who he was. You know, there was nobody cannier than Hepburn for being uncanny. You know?

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. She was she was wonderful. So I wanna know about Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn. I'm a tell you what I always heard. We always heard that they were love that they were in love with each other.

Tony Maietta:

Right.

Brad Shreve:

And what I have always heard was they wanted to be together, but, like, Kate would be divorced, but he would be married. And then she would get married, and he'd get divorced. Is there truth to that?

Tony Maietta:

Well, you know who started that? You know who really promoted the rumor that they were lovers?

Brad Shreve:

Kate Hepburn.

Tony Maietta:

Was was Kate Hepburn?

Brad Shreve:

Yeah.

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. After Spencer Tracy died. Here's the thing, and this is I think this is the take on Hepburn and and Tracy. They had, how do you say this? They there was definitely a connection, and there was definitely in the beginning, When they first met, there was definitely chemistry. I mean, you watch watch woman of the year, and they I mean, They're burning off the screen. I mean, these 2 people truly there's a connection there. You can see it. That film doesn't lie.

Tony Maietta:

So there was there was a very long relationship there. But after a while, It became more of a very romantic friendship, platonic. William Mann wrote a great book on Hepburn where he talks about this. The friendship became the relationship became much more of a platonic love. Now they were always there supporting each other. She supported him through the last years of his life. She got him through his last films. You know, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner would not have been made had she not Insisted that Stanley Kramer do it with Tracy, and, you know, she put up her salary famously, his insurance.

Tony Maietta:

She got him through that filming. So there was a great love there. And then after Tracy died, She really, really perpetuated the myth of this great love affair of Tracy Hepburn because there was nobody who was an astuteur technician of her image than Kate Hepburn was. Kate Hepburn knew exactly what she was doing and when she was doing it. And she knew that the legend of Tracie and Hepburn was going to be her bread and butter as the years went on. Now she also did some incredible acting work in her later years as well. But she was so smart in knowing that the public latched on to that legend of Tracy Hepburn. So so, yeah, it it began I probably began as a physical thing, but definitely developed Quickly into an emotional, some might say codependent relationship.

Tony Maietta:

She allowed him to treat her in ways she never would have allowed anybody else to treat her. You know, she allowed him, I mean, quite misogynistically, To treat her in in kind of demeaning ways, and she just she let it happen because she adored him. But but but It wasn't a I mean, he had fair he carried on a fit people think that they fell in love with each other and they couldn't get together because he was married, And he wasn't gonna get divorced because he was Catholic and blah blah blah. He continued to have affairs with other women while he was with Katharine Hepburn. Mean, this is a man who had affairs in his entire career. He was a very, very, very conflicted man. I mean, there are people who talk about his sexuality and, you know, about the possibility of him also. The reason he drank and was so unhappy was because he couldn't come to terms with his sexual desire for men.

Tony Maietta:

Okay. Maybe. I don't know. That could be possible. But, this was a very conflicted man. She was there as his loving friend and support system up until he died. And I think that's the best way to look at that wonderful romantic relationship. Did that answer your question? Did it?

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. Yeah. It did very well. Now with Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, was that his last film?

Tony Maietta:

Yes. What a way to go. He died he died 2 weeks after.

Brad Shreve:

But wait. It's like The last shot. Yeah. He reminds me of Henry Ford for Henry Ford's last film to be on Golden Pond.

Tony Maietta:

Henry Fonda.

Brad Shreve:

Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. Henry Fonda, for his last film to be on Golden Pond, they both went out on a high note.

Tony Maietta:

Pretty amazing. Yeah. And they both had to be were both with Hepburn, ironically.

Brad Shreve:

Yes. You're right. Actually, now you mentioned

Tony Maietta:

it. And they both kind of had to be shepherded through it. You know, Hepburn, you know, the only reason knowing Golden Pond happened was because Jane Fonda got her father through that film. It was an incredibly important thing to Jane Fonda To have this film with her father and thank you know, she has that. I love Jane Fonda. And I think it's a it's a wonderful film, so you can thank Jane Fonda for that. And, You know, you thank Hepburn for you know, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner is is a is a good movie of its So of its time, but it was a really I mean, it was a very brave movie at the time. And that scene they have between the last scene he has where Tracy has that long monologue about how he feels about Hepburn

Brad Shreve:

Oh, yeah. Brilliant.

Tony Maietta:

Which is basically a summation. It's like a real meta moment because it's a summation of the characters, but it's also a summation of Tracy Hepburn is is one of the most beautiful moments on film, and she's just She has those, you know, again, a brilliant brilliant technician of her purse of her image. Her eyes are flooded with tears, You know? Because she did feel that, but she also knew this was this was really Tracy talking to her. And also a beautiful movie.

Brad Shreve:

You brother the one. It's a great film. It drives me crazy crazy when people say it's outdated. No. It's not. It was late sixties. Put your mind back in the late sixties. To say it's updated no.

Brad Shreve:

You're wrong.

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. Well, thank god it's in color. Otherwise, they say, oh, it's in black and white. I can't watch it. And they're like, really?

Brad Shreve:

That's so sad.

Tony Maietta:

You know, movies were black and white until maybe 19 I mean, they really didn't start Becoming all color until the mid sixties. So you're missing on you're missing out on some incredible films By having that very narrow viewpoint, like, I can't watch it because it's in black and white. Okay. Well, then that's your loss.

Brad Shreve:

And what drives me crazy

Tony Maietta:

It's Brilliant stuff.

Brad Shreve:

Colorizing film. 1, just because it's wrong. But number 2, those black and white films, the sets were designed with tones knowing it was gonna be filmed in black and white. So when you try to colorize that, it just doesn't work.

Tony Maietta:

It doesn't work. It never looks I mean, it gets better and better. You're what you're doing is you're tampering with the director's vision, which to me is kinda sacrosanct. So what I love, I won't watch a movie. I mean, I don't know if they exist anymore, but I won't watch a movie unless it's Letterboxd, if it's shot that way. If it's a if it's a wide screen cinema scope, you know, I won't watch them because I'm missing half the film because it's cut off. Oh, yeah. And and I feel that way about colorization too. It's like you're missing there's a reason you're missing. This film was designed to be seen this way.

Tony Maietta:

You know? So you're missing what the director's Ultimate intent was by monkeying with it. I agree with you on that. I'm not I'm not I've never been a fan of colorization. You know, it's it's I don't believe in it.

Brad Shreve:

Well, I'm in now stir us in a different direction. I wanna you brought up, His Girl Friday.

Tony Maietta:

Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:

His Girl Friday is something you cannot watch over dinner because you have to listen to every single word. Yeah. Another example of that is the women.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, yeah.

Brad Shreve:

Both of those have boom boom boom one line after 1 after and you'd miss the film if you aren't catching every single line. Do you think a movie like that could be made today And be successful?

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. I think so. I think so. I think there are some. I think there's some, now I'm gonna rack my brain trying to think of But,

Brad Shreve:

I can tell you, I never watched Gilmore Girls, but people told me for a TV series, it was I believe that. Along those lines.

Tony Maietta:

There are some incredibly smart oh, Veep? I mean, you can't you know, Veep is brilliant. It's brutal. But, I mean, what a what an incredible show in that dialogue. I mean, it's it's so, Gosh. It's so convoluted and so complex. You have to so, yeah, I think so many of these things are on television now That, sadly, that they're not in the theater anymore. So if you wanna see that has that kind of really brittle, witty dialogue that you have to watch. I don't know about being as fast as his girl Friday.

Tony Maietta:

I mean, that was kind of like His Go Fridays insanely fast because that's the style that was Yes.

Brad Shreve:

Don't even,

Tony Maietta:

You can.

Brad Shreve:

Put a Q tip in your ear. You'll miss you can't miss anything.

Tony Maietta:

Howard Hawkes, you know, did that on purpose. We made his go Friday. He wanted to be that fast. And it's also constructed, so The dialogue, yes, it overlaps, and, yes, they interrupt each other, but the important points come across. You know, it's constructed, so he knew someone was going to laugh then. So there might be a little bit of a filler thing, then comes the next joke. And then comes so it was just a constant laugh after laugh after laugh. But you have to I think because we're watching on TV, it's, it's different than what you know, watching a film in a theater is such a different experience in watching a film on TV.

Tony Maietta:

I'm ashamed to say this as a quote, unquote film historian, but I didn't see Gone With the Wind until In a film, in a theater until maybe, like, 1990, 1991, and it was a totally different film for me than the one I'd seen on television For years years years, I didn't realize it was funny. There are parts of Gone with the Wind which are so funny, And there are parts and you don't realize that because you're not with an audience watching this film. There is nothing more joyous Them watching Auntie Mame in a theater full of gay men or the women. It is the most incredible Experience because you're with a community of your of your people, if it were. But even if it wasn't gay men, I've seen anti maim at film festivals. And, yeah, most of the audience were gay men, but still. You see this because you're in this community and you're having this shared experience, and it's the most wonderful joyous thing. That's how movies were designed to be.

Tony Maietta:

And we get further and further and further away from that. Again, maybe not ashamed to say it, but I haven't been to a movie theater maybe a handful of times since the pandemic, Quote, unquote ended? Because they're just not the same experience for me personally anymore. I don't wanna sit through 20,000 previews. It drives me crazy.

Brad Shreve:

I don't mind previews. It's commercials I don't like. And I hate a preview that gives me too much. That drives me nuts.

Tony Maietta:

Well, I saw West Side Story, and there were 45 previews. I swear to you. 45 minutes of previews, and I was losing my mind. I was like, can you just play the fucking movie? Yeah. I was so angry at AMC. See, I will never go back to AMC again, but that's me. I'm curmudgeonly in that way. But I think that we get further and further away from that In how movies were designed, in movies like His Girl Friday and movies like, Bringing Up Baby, movies like The Awful Truth, all Cary Grant movies, by the way, are different experiences in a theater than they are when you're watching them on TV.

Tony Maietta:

So I'm sorry that your friend fell asleep during All About 
Eve because I guarantee you, if she watched all about eve with you in a theater, she wouldn't have fallen asleep.

Brad Shreve:

Well, I'm gonna shock a lot of people here, and and I'll probably get some nasty emails. I have never seen God with them anymore.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, no. That's not.

Brad Shreve:

I have probably seen the entire film.

Tony Maietta:

But you've never sat down and watched it from beginning to end?

Brad Shreve:

Never watched never sat and watched it.

Tony Maietta:

It's a hard it's a long movie. It's hard to sit through from beginning to end.

Brad Shreve:

It is very the last time I tried, I fell asleep and and we were like, okay. We're gonna start it back again. We left fell asleep, and we never did.

Tony Maietta:

Well, I don't think I've ever sat down. I know I have, actually.

Brad Shreve:

It's a long ass film.

Tony Maietta:

It's a long movie. You have to you have to invest in it. It has to be something that has to be your event for the night. But I think you have to see it in the theater.

Brad Shreve:

I think in the future, I'll watch until the intermission stop and come back later and watch the rest.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, yeah. You have to say it. Right. That's why they put the intermission in. But I if you ever have the opportunity to see it in the theater, I refused to see Lawrence of Arabia until I could See it in the theater. And I waited a long time because I'm like, no. I'm not gonna see this on a TV screen. I'm going to see it for the first time.

Tony Maietta:

I'm going to see it in a in 70 millimeter in a movie theater so I can really appreciate it. Same thing with Doctor Zhivago. Same thing with these big things. You know, you need to see them in movie theaters. And, unfortunately, there's fewer and fewer places you can do that, but they still exist.

Brad Shreve:

And I know you're not a fan of Marvel, but you have to watch a Marvel film in.

Tony Maietta:

I'm sure you do. It won't be me.

Brad Shreve:

You really do. It's just not the same. I know. You'll never go. That's okay. My husband is a comic book freak, and,

Tony Maietta:

maybe when Meryl finally does one, I will. But because I know Meryl could make anything. Wonderful.

Brad Shreve:

But another movie that isn't really all that good of a movie, but, visually, it needs to be on the big screen is How the West Was Won.

Tony Maietta:

Oh god. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:

Historically, it's so inaccurate.

Tony Maietta:

I saw it at the Dome.

Brad Shreve:

Oh, did you?

Tony Maietta:

Yeah. TCM it was TCM did it at the Dome when Robert Osborne was, introduced it with Debbie Reynolds for some strange reason. I don't know why Debbie Reynolds was oh, Debbie Reynolds was in it. Duh.

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. She was in it. I'm gonna

Tony Maietta:

say yes. So she entered in and Debbie was She still had all of her stuff about her, and she was so funny and so body.

Brad Shreve:

For those that don't know, The Dome is the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood, which is a Landmark movie theater. It is a dome. It's a incredible place to go see a film. It was it's many times been slated to be demolished. And what's the latest on that?

Tony Maietta:

I think it's I think it's listed as a historic landmark.

Brad Shreve:

Okay. They were trying to do that, so we shouldn't get demolished.

Tony Maietta:

Yes.

Brad Shreve:

Okay.

Tony Maietta:

Which basically means it sits empty.

Brad Shreve:

That's that. It's a great place to see a film.

Tony Maietta:

It is an incredible as for where I saw Gone With the Wind the first time. But It's not Gone Gone With the Wind isn't even in wasn't designed. You don't have to see Gone With the Wind in widescreen. It wasn't filmed in widescreen. It was filmed before widescreen existed. But how the west was 1?

Brad Shreve:

You can actually see. Is it, like, 4 segments right in front of you? Oh, I

Tony Maietta:

think it's 3.

Brad Shreve:

Yeah.

Tony Maietta:

It's 3 segments. And, You know, Debbie Reynolds talked about when they how difficult it was to film logistically because you're in a close-up with somebody, But you're not looking at that person. You're looking over to the left about 3 feet because of the way the cameras are situated. And what Cinerama was for people who don't who don't know, it was basically 3 cameras set up to give you this incredible vista, this incredible scope of a of a of a screen. So it's really funny because when and when their people are having conversations and how the west is one, they're really not talking to each other. But the way you're you know, the way it's shot, they are. I loved it. I didn't think I would love it because I was like, it's not really my kind of a movie.

Tony Maietta:

I'm like, really? How the West was Won? But I went and saw it, and I at the dome, and it was incredible. I loved it.

Brad Shreve:

It it's incredible. Visually, it's fun to watch. Like I said, historically, it's grossly inaccurate, but

Tony Maietta:

Oh, they are.

Brad Shreve:

But it's a fun film.

Tony Maietta:

It is a fun film. If you

Brad Shreve:

watch it, don't expect accuracy. Just enjoy the film.

Tony Maietta:

No. You can't.

Brad Shreve:

Well, we're gonna wrap it up. Okay. One thing we missed, I adore Audrey Hepburn with a passion. She was a major factor in my 2nd novel even though it takes place in the 19 around 2000. And, Breakfast at Tiffany's, I absolutely adore. Absolutely adore. So we'll have to get to that one.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, yeah. There's a lot to say about it because it's it's a hot button.

Brad Shreve:

I heard the the short story is It's much darker, and I haven't I haven't read it yet.

Tony Maietta:

Oh, it's nothing it's nothing like the film. The film is a totally different animal.

Brad Shreve:

And I presume they get much more into his, being Well,

Tony Maietta:

in the in the in the book, in the novella, he's he's gay. The character is gay.

Brad Shreve:

Oh.

Tony Maietta:

The the main character, the character that's

Brad Shreve:

Is he still a gigolo?

Tony Maietta:

Played by George Peppard? No. He's gay. There's a totally platonic relationship between Holly and and the boy, and whatever his name is. I can't remember what his name is in the in the in the play, but in the in the movie. But, totally different. He's gay. Yeah. It's totally they totally just I'll say briefly.

Tony Maietta:

Breakfast at Tiffany's was one of these books like Myra Breckenridge later. If anybody knows that reference, then send me an email. That Hollywood considered unfilmable because of its subject matter, because you had a gay protagonist, because you had a, female, A female heroine who was basically a a call girl, a sex worker in today's parlance. And they thought so the only way they could make it Filmable for 1960 Hollywood was to completely change it.

Brad Shreve:

Well, he was a sex worker, and It was hinted

Tony Maietta:

Well, yes. He was a party worker, and they managed to slip that in there if you notice, but they never say it. You know, he's a reluctant

Brad Shreve:

Oh, no. But it's come on.

Tony Maietta:

He is a patron. Patricia Neil is his patron. He's not out, you know, like, he's not outgoing to the bathroom to get money like Holly is. No. It's very tricky. So we I would love to talk to you about it more. That that's a little teaser, perhaps for the next time. Because, you know, Also, who Truman Capote really wanted to be Holly Golightly is completely different than Audrey Hepburn.

Tony Maietta:

So

Brad Shreve:

I can imagine that. And, before you freak out, I will say Mickey Rooney in that role is disgusting, vile, And, fortunately, it's very small parts in the movie. The rest of it is bright.

Tony Maietta:

It's a it's a bad It

Brad Shreve:

doesn't ruin it

Tony Maietta:

Bad choice. Bad bad choice.

Brad Shreve:

Yeah. Mickey Rooney is a Japanese man. Anyway Anyway. And not only a Japanese man, but so stereotyped, with the buck teeth and everything. Tony, it has been a pleasure. As I said the last time, we could go on for hours. This this would be like one of those Good.

Tony Maietta:

It's a lot of fun. I love it. I love it

Brad Shreve:

a lot. You're a lot of fun to talk to.

Tony Maietta:

Thank you. You are too.