PRIDE Boys: Celebrating “The Boys in the Band”

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Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maea.

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And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

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We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age.

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We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

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And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

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As does your self-delusion.

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Welcome to Going Hollywood, Brad.

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Brad, before we start, brad, because I never see you except when we're recording these podcasts, and I wanted to invite you to this birthday party that I'm going to, I was wondering if you'd like to go with me.

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You know it's going to be a really tight group about nine guys.

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It's just a very small get-together and these guys are.

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They're a lot of fun, they can be a lot of fun and it's at this fabulous apartment with this huge terrace that overlooks the city.

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Would you like to go with me?

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You know, tony, I get such a rare opportunity to get into the city now that I live outside, that I would love to come to one of your parties.

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Oh, good.

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Well, it's not my party, it's for a friend of mine.

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It's his 32nd birthday.

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Oh, he's old.

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It'll be a lot of fun, but I should probably mention just a little caveat there is the slightest potential for humiliation, emotional scarring and devastation, but there'll be cake.

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Well, hey, cake's all that matters.

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I can deal with the rest of it.

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Happy Pride everybody.

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Happy Pride.

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It's boys in the band.

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Did we give it away?

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Did we give it away too much there?

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Nothing to sing you know, with this podcast being relatively new, tony and I were making all kinds of plans to you know what episodes do we want to do?

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When we brainstormed and finally Tony's like wait a minute, it's Pride Month, we need to do a Pride Month episode, and so we have just enough time to get this one in.

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What a good one to choose.

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Well, I think we kind of have to, and I was also saying to Brad too you know it's kind of redundant that we're doing a Pride episode because so many of our episodes have gay references, but I feel it was really important that we do this landmark film for our very first Pride season.

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So I am very excited to be doing it.

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Yeah, I really, really am, because I think it's a very, very—no matter how you feel about it, good or bad there's no denying it's a landmark and it needs to be discussed, I think.

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And I have a couple things to say about it.

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I had mixed emotions when you said it.

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I immediately said oh God, we have to do it.

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It's a classic.

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Right.

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But, if you remember, I said well, what were you talking?

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I assumed you were talking about the 1970 film, but I didn't want to 100% assume that.

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I didn't want to watch the wrong thing.

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So I asked you are we talking about the 70 film, the Netflix 2020 film, or are we doing both?

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And you were like well, I only had my head in 1970.

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I said that's fine.

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So I had mixed feelings when you decided that this would be a good idea, tony, and the reason is I hate this movie.

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I've always hated this movie.

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It's disturbing.

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There's a lot about it I hate.

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So I said when I sit down this time, I'm going to go with an open mind and put things in a different perspective.

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So I did that, and later I will share with you if my feelings about this movie have changed.

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Okay, good, good.

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But like any movie, right now I can tell you there are big pluses and big minuses, like any film, and we can certainly get into those along the way.

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Yeah, you know, I think this movie is important to do, just for its landmark value.

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You know, there's no getting around it.

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Whether you love it or whether you hate it, it was a landmark in cinema.

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It was the first time that gay characters were seen as quote unquote, normal people.

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Now I know there's people who are going to give me an argument about what normal is, but anyway, that weren't aberrants of nature, that gay people were just like everybody else.

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It was the first time in a mainstream film.

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Obviously, there had been gay characters in films and they usually were murderers or were murdered.

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You know Sebastian Venable getting eaten literally by a group of roving street urchins roving a group of roving street urchins.

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So what's important about the Boys in the Band is that it was the first and, yeah, love it, hate it.

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It has that distinction.

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So I think that's why it's important for us to talk about.

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I have mixed feelings about this film as well, you know.

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It's funny because I think I was thinking about when was the first time I saw Boys in the Band and, regardless of what anyone might think out there, I did not see it in the theater in 1970, so the first time I saw it, I know was on VHS.

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It had been released on VHS, which was a horrible quality, horrible, horrible, but I had.

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I saw Cruising first.

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Okay, william Friedkin, for a supposedly straight man and he was married four times, so I'm assuming he was straight.

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He directed the two most controversial films in gay cinema history the Boys in the Band and then, 10 years later, cruising.

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Oh, someday we'll do Cruising, but I'll have to get my stomach ready for that.

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And in between the two he fit in the French Connection and the Exorcist.

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But I think I saw cruising first, so the boys in the band wasn't that scarring to me because nobody was being knifed to death in the boys in the band.

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I'm like cruising.

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I think I saw cruising first, so boys in the band wasn't that scarring to me because nobody was being knifed to death in Boys in the Band.

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You know what I mean.

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So coming to Boys in the Band after seeing Cruising was like a breath of fresh air for me personally.

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Queer people were protesting, cruising.

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I know people that tell me they were out there with their placards.

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Well, queer people were protesting.

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Boys in the Band.

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Well, yeah, but Cruising was a flashback to basically gay men are all psychopaths.

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Yeah, it's a hard fun watch.

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Maybe we can do it sometime, because I also don't think it's as bad as it was thought at the time.

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I really don't.

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I think there are some things about it which are interesting, things about it which are interesting.

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So you know, what I think is important about the Boys in the Band is its historical significance in cinema history, and that's really the reason I wanted to do it.

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Do you want to tell the people what this movie that we've been talking about now is about?

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Absolutely, and I also have a description.

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I've seen online quite often it's almost the exact same one in every site.

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I'm going to get to that later, but I'm going to give my description at first.

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Boys in the Band is a 1970 film based on a 1968 play by Matt Crowley and, to put this in perspective, the play came out the year before Stonewall and therefore the movie came out and I assume was being filmed during the time of Stonewall.

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Interesting story there.

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So this is a pretty amazing time period.

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Yes.

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You know what Mark Crowley said, the reason he wasn't at Stonewall although I don't think he would frequent Stonewall, he probably went more for the townhouse.

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Knowing Mark Crowley, they were filming the Boys in the Band, you know, 20 blocks up from Stonewall when the writing began, so that kind of tells you what was going on.

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So the Boys in the Band began as one movie and ended as something very different.

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And you mentioned that you think he'd hang out at the townhouse.

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I'm sure you know what he did in real life.

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Did he really?

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That was a shot in the dark.

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Yes, the apartment was based on an actress and I'll have to find her name Tammy Grimes.

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Tammy Grimes.

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The exterior was actually filmed at her apartment Right the daytime Right, but they could not get the cameras inside her apartment.

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It was too small, so they built a set that they say matched it.

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So pretty, damn nice apartment.

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I'll tell you that.

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Gorgeous apartments on the Upper East Side.

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Nobody could afford that in New York today.

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No.

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Certainly not an out-of-work actor.

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Certainly not.

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So what is this movie about?

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Okay.

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So the movie is about a birthday party and it is hosted by Michael, and Michael is a for lack of a better word I keep seeing recovering alcoholic.

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He doesn't usually really use that term.

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He pretty much just says I stopped drinking, but he's an alcoholic.

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You definitely learned that.

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He also is Catholic and seems to be struggling there.

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And he is hosting this party for his friend, harold.

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And I don't know what Harold does for a living.

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I don't think he's ever told.

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But Harold describes himself as an ugly, pockmarked Jew fairy.

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Michael and all his friends are all stereotypes, and I don't see that as a negative because I'm firmly of the belief that stereotypes do exist for a reason and every one of these individuals is a stereotype.

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Stereotypes do exist for a reason and every one of these individuals is a stereotype.

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But I can also say I know every one of these individuals.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Well, that's very true.

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Yeah, I know every one of them.

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Michael is really struggling with his identity.

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Though you would never know it at the beginning, he seems the most stable.

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Harold is very self-loathing, bitter in his own way.

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Emery is super flamboyant the decorator.

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Well, they are archetypes.

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I hear what you're saying.

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They are archetypes, but I think it's important to point out, and Mark Crowley has said this and I wanted to get a little bit in the background of I'm not going to talk a lot about the play, but it's important because basically, what we're seeing when we see the film the Boys in the Band is the play, is the play, is the film version of the play, because it has the exact same cast, almost all the same dialogue.

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So I want to talk about that.

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But what Mark Crowley, when he would get criticized for saying it was, it was a bad representation of gay culture.

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He's like it's.

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I'm not trying to represent gay culture.

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These are my friends.

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You know, all of these characters were based on real people that Mark Crowley knew.

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Now, Harold, who was an ice skater I don't think he's still ice skating, but, as you said, you didn't know what he did Harold was an ice skater.

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He was based on a very good friend of Mark Crowley's.

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Basically, what happened is Let me go ahead and give a little background about.

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Can I go ahead and give a little bit of background about how the boys in the band came about and about Mark Crowley Sure, let's go ahead and do that.

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So anyway, Mark Crowley grew up in the South and longed to be a playwright.

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He moved to New York when he was young and he somehow found himself being a PA on the set of Splendor in the Grass, and being a PA primarily for Natalie Wood, and he and Natalie Wood became very close friends and when Splendor in the Grass was over, Natalie Wood asked him to come back to Los Angeles with her and be her assistant.

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So he became Natalie Wood's assistant and he was very much in the Hollywood scene of the 60s, which was a fabulous, fabulous time to be in Hollywood, I think, and he knew all these people and he actually one of the things that she said if he came to Hollywood with her, she would give him a meeting with her agent at William Morris so he could get some work writing.

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And he actually wrote some screenplays, one of which was purchased by 20th Century Fox to star Natalie Wood, and Natalie Wood was going to play twins, one of the twins being a lesbian, which would have been incredible, but 20th Century Fox lost their nerve and it never happened.

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Big surprise, it's called.

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Cassandra at the Wedding.

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Yeah, so Mark Crowley was kind of like a dilettante.

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He was in the room where it happened, he was with all these famous people, all these things were happening around him, yet he was not doing anything and he began to get very depressed and he began to drink.

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Well, he had this friend, this very good friend, named Howard Jeffries, who was a dancer and worked on all the big musicals in the 60s.

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He was in Funny Girl, he was the groom in the bridal scene, he was in Hello Dolly.

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He was a very, very accomplished dancer and he took Mark to this birthday party that was full of well, not full of gay men, a small birthday party of about a dozen gay men.

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Light bulb that went off in Mark Crowley's mind about what he could possibly write, that spoke to him as a gay man and he said that he was lying in bed and he was very depressed and he just started writing lines, one after the other after the other, and he just did this for days, and days and days until he finally had a play that was based on the concept of a birthday party.

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It's Harold, based on his friend Howard Jeffries.

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Harold's 32nd birthday.

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All of these men come together to wish him a happy birthday and, of course, the night it turns into a long day's journey into night.

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It's just how it happens, how it degenerates.

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But here's what I have a problem with, and maybe you don't agree with this.

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I have been to parties like this, you know.

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Maybe they didn't degenerate to the point that they degenerate to in the boys in the band, but there certainly was something in the air that I knew this was turning quickly.

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I got to get out of here.

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So that's why, when people say it's stereotypical, I don't know that that's necessarily true or that's necessarily a bad thing, because I think these people exist.

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When I say it's stereotypical, I meant the characters are stereotypes.

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Okay.

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And, yeah, I guess you could say the situation is stereotypical, but I don't know if I thought that at first.

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The self-loathing is certainly heavy.

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Yes, here's my challenge with this.

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So let me go back into the description that I've seen online, and this is where I have a challenge with this film.

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I've seen, I'm reading I don't remember where the source was, but it's almost identical to everything else.

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I've seen A witty, perceptive and devastating look at the personal agendas and suppressed revelations swirling among a group of gay men in Manhattan.

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Harold is celebrating a birthday and his friend, michael has drafted some other friends to help commemorate the event.

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Here's where I have the challenge.

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As the evening progresses, the alcohol flows, the knives come out and Michael's demand that the group participate in devious telephone games unleash dormant and unspoken emotions.

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If that was this movie, I would like it better.

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That did not describe this movie.

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Those tensions and those antagonisms were right from the very beginning.

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They got worse as later goes on.

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You know, originally I didn't like this film because there was so much self-loathing.

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And then I looked at my own life and I'm like God.

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I had self-loathing for a lot of years.

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I relate to these people, yeah, and then I looked at my own life and I'm like God, I had self-loathing for a lot of years.

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This, really, I relate to these people yeah, pretty common.

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But you know, this is all before my time.

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But I've talked to guys in this era and they said there were two things about it.

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One, it was scary because you never knew who to trust.

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Yes, but despite all that and despite the pain and the suffering, when they got together it was very painful, but there's also a lot of joy, yeah, and they really look on that fondly and I didn't see any of that in this movie, really.

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And what I would like to see better, more is in the beginning.

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Maybe it would have been longer, or I can think of a few things that could have been taken out nothing major.

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I would like to see more of that joy and the campiness, because I think the camp was much more over the top then because they had to express themselves somehow.

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You don't think, emery?

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was campy.

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Well.

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I Connie Casserole.

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Oh Mary, don't ask.

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No, no, I would like to have seen more of that amongst the whole group.

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And they did a little bit of it, they did a little dancing, they did the the Dance of Fire.

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Island yeah.

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Reading each other and that kind of thing.

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To me it went downhill way too fast and it really started out with Michael.

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And is it Donald?

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Yes, michael and Donald are friends, but there's that antagonism between them right from the beginning.

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So I wish it was a little more fun in the beginning and then pulled us into the pain.

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Well see, I find it so funny, it's you know it's no accident.

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Well see, I find it so funny, it's you know it's no accident.

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The two inspirations that Mark Crowley looks to or mentioned as his inspirations for the play and for the film were who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

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Duh, I mean, it is the gay.

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Who's Afraid's Virginia Woolf, and that's the Boys in the Band.

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They were actually made audio recordings on albums of Virginia Woolf and Boys in the Band, and it makes sense because they're like bookends.

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He also looked at Rope, the Alfred Hitchcock film.

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There's a play that the Alfred Hitchcock film was based on, because it takes place in real time, and the Boys in the Band also takes place in real time.

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And if you've seen the movie Rope, the play is much more blatant.

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It's a gay couple.

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It's not hinted at.

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So what I, what I think is, see, I find it hysterically funny in the beginning.

00:17:29.010 --> 00:17:36.490
I, I, I, because I don't know, I these lines, they're so bright, they're so sharp, um, they're comebacks with each other.

00:17:36.490 --> 00:17:41.268
It's to me so intelligent and so literate and I love that.

00:17:41.268 --> 00:17:55.391
And then the fact that it turns when, when alan shows up and suddenly these gay men are struggling within themselves whether or not to go back into their own closet, because when they're together at michael's, they're themselves, and I find joy in that.

00:17:55.391 --> 00:18:00.490
When they do the dance of fire island, when they're kidding around with each other, that's them being free.

00:18:00.490 --> 00:18:13.424
And then suddenly the enemy shows up, the straight man shows up and they question themselves no, I'm not going to go back in my closet, I'm going to stand in my own space and this man's entering our world, we're not going into his.

00:18:13.865 --> 00:18:28.008
And that's when it turns for me, and that's when it gets dark, but it's still bitterly funny even in that darkness I really realized you're right when you said that I think I would like to have seen Alan come in, if nothing else, even five minutes later.

00:18:28.008 --> 00:18:30.808
Just give us a little more of that good time.

00:18:30.808 --> 00:18:34.589
I didn't laugh a lot through this, and I never have.

00:18:34.589 --> 00:18:41.566
I was reading the review of the 2018 Broadway because it was originally off-Broadway and then 2018 they brought it back on.

00:18:41.586 --> 00:18:46.224
Broadway and I was reading the review of that Right and in 2018, they brought it back on Broadway and I was reading the review of that Right Finally finally made it to Broadway.

00:18:46.224 --> 00:18:46.846
It finally made it to Broadway?

00:18:46.865 --> 00:19:06.280
Yes, it did, and they said the audience was saying the lines, the funny lines, before they were being spoken and were laughing and I'm like there are some great funny lines in there, but to me they were so overshadowed by the pain and maybe that's the part I'm missing, that you have that joy in the midst of pain and that is part more of what I got from it later on.

00:19:07.222 --> 00:19:08.545
Well, here's the thing.

00:19:08.545 --> 00:19:09.066
I mean.

00:19:09.066 --> 00:19:13.314
This play was written when we could still be arrested.

00:19:13.314 --> 00:19:14.683
Obviously, it was before Stonewall.

00:19:14.683 --> 00:19:15.385
What was Stonewall?

00:19:15.385 --> 00:19:18.865
Stonewall was the police coming in and raiding a bar to arrest people.

00:19:18.865 --> 00:19:21.550
So this play was written in a time.

00:19:21.611 --> 00:19:29.806
Now here's the thing, though In the mid-60s, the culture was tearing, and what happens when things start to tear is other things start to seep in.

00:19:29.806 --> 00:19:47.083
So, as the culture is tearing in the mid-60s because of Vietnam, because of civil rights protests, suddenly there's a space opening up for these other things to happen, such as gay culture coming forward stronger, for these other things to happen, such as gay culture coming forward.

00:19:47.083 --> 00:19:48.626
So when the play was made, it was a very different time.

00:19:48.626 --> 00:19:59.964
It was still very oppressive, and the fact that these men could find a family with each other, no matter how dysfunctional you may think it may be, it was still a family.

00:19:59.964 --> 00:20:11.834
You know, at the end of the play, after Harold absolutely decimates Michael with his words and Michael is a heap he's not quite a heap, but he's going to be a heap he turns to him and he says call you tomorrow.

00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:14.103
Now think about.

00:20:14.103 --> 00:20:28.994
Okay, yeah, that's a pretty dysfunctional friendship, yes, okay, but there's that sense of family there, that sense of love there that people have with people they're close to and they allow themselves to be themselves with.

00:20:28.994 --> 00:20:42.446
So I find the joy in that and I also find the pain in that, because I remember that my own internalized struggles with my sexuality, I remember that pain, that self-loathing, that hatred these people are personifying that.

00:20:42.446 --> 00:20:42.827
Oh yeah.

00:20:42.867 --> 00:20:43.691
And it existed.

00:20:43.691 --> 00:20:45.526
It's a historic fact.

00:20:45.526 --> 00:20:46.288
Still exists.

00:20:46.942 --> 00:20:48.429
Still exists and I agree.

00:20:48.429 --> 00:20:51.220
That's that's where I did connect is when I really like wait a minute.

00:20:51.220 --> 00:20:57.483
You hated yourself just as much as these guys did, but again, what you described is not all that I I wanted to see more of that in the film.

00:20:57.483 --> 00:21:10.964
As I said, I'm only going this from from hearsay, from what men of that era have told me is the joy and the love of their adopted family or their chosen family, and I would have liked to seen a little.

00:21:10.964 --> 00:21:21.804
But they also talked about the pain and the fear and everything else, and I would have liked to seen just a little more of that chosen family love before that pain that obviously still did exist as well came in.

00:21:21.804 --> 00:21:26.209
That's all I'm saying, because it would have endeared me a little bit more to each of the characters.

00:21:26.490 --> 00:21:28.922
I get what you're saying I wanted to care just a little bit more.

00:21:28.922 --> 00:21:30.759
The characters are hard to like.

00:21:31.221 --> 00:21:34.162
Like people, they're very complex characters.

00:21:34.162 --> 00:21:40.497
Michael, the character of Michael, who's played by Kenneth Nelson, was sort of kind of based on.

00:21:40.497 --> 00:21:41.538
You know, mark Crowley based him kind of on himself.

00:21:41.538 --> 00:21:43.300
Mark Crowley based him kind of on himself.

00:21:43.300 --> 00:21:45.323
Mark Crowley had issues with drinking.

00:21:45.323 --> 00:21:50.750
He became sober later in his life and he just God bless him he died.

00:21:50.750 --> 00:21:56.553
He finally won the Tony Award for the revival for Best Revival of a Play of the Boys in the Band and he died a little bit later.

00:21:56.634 --> 00:22:01.038
He had a heart attack, which is sad because he was a very, very funny, funny, wonderful guy.

00:22:01.038 --> 00:22:04.161
So Michael is based on Mark Crowley at that time.

00:22:04.161 --> 00:22:09.586
As I said, harold is based on his friend Howard Jeffries, and there are other.

00:22:09.586 --> 00:22:11.688
Donald was based on another dear friend.

00:22:11.688 --> 00:22:20.215
Donald was played by Frederick Holmes, who was the Matt Bomer character in the revival and another good friend of his.

00:22:20.215 --> 00:22:24.041
So these were all friends of his and he was showing the facets of all of his friends.

00:22:24.863 --> 00:22:30.696
I think what I want to say about this and the historical importance of both the play and the film.

00:22:30.696 --> 00:22:38.057
This play first of all had a very I don't want to go into all the machinations of how it got on stage.

00:22:38.057 --> 00:22:46.401
It was a workshop that Edward Albee produced from the money he was making from who's afraid of virginia wolf and because he didn't want to give to the government.

00:22:46.401 --> 00:22:57.598
So he created this workshop and it was for five nights, and the first night of the show of the play, the house was half full, and this was in 1968.

00:22:57.598 --> 00:23:06.099
And the second night, the next morning after the first night, there was a line down the block of about 500 people waiting to see this play.

00:23:06.099 --> 00:23:16.568
So this play was huge, played five performances in the workshop and then it moved uptown to, I think, 55th Street and played for 1,001 performances.

00:23:16.568 --> 00:23:18.097
So this play was big.

00:23:19.621 --> 00:23:30.108
And when the movie companies came to Mark Crowley saying that they wanted to buy it and make a film of it because that was happening all the time Mark Crowley was the most amazing thing.

00:23:30.108 --> 00:23:53.247
He turned down all these offers for lots of money because he knew that these studios would turn this into a Hollywood version and have these Hollywood actors in it, have these Hollywood actors in it, and he wanted to reward the brave actors who literally put their careers on the line to play these parts.

00:23:53.247 --> 00:24:05.873
Lawrence Luckinbill, who plays Hank, the one who was married but is bisexual and struggling with sexuality with Harry, said that they all lost their agents because their agents all told them don't do this play and they're like we're going to do this play.

00:24:05.873 --> 00:24:06.635
It's a brilliant play.

00:24:06.635 --> 00:24:08.840
So anyway, he wanted to reward them.

00:24:09.582 --> 00:24:10.644
I saw an interview.

00:24:10.644 --> 00:24:12.836
He said his wife at the time, robin Strasser.

00:24:12.836 --> 00:24:14.738
She said do you want to really do this?

00:24:14.738 --> 00:24:15.499
And he said I do.

00:24:15.499 --> 00:24:17.020
And she said, okay, there goes your career.

00:24:17.421 --> 00:24:17.601
Yeah.

00:24:17.801 --> 00:24:21.625
She supported him, but it's just like okay, there goes your career, absolutely, absolutely.

00:24:21.625 --> 00:24:22.426
That was the thing you know.

00:24:22.426 --> 00:24:24.829
We talked a little bit about when I was acting and how I had to be.

00:24:24.829 --> 00:24:26.251
I had to play it straight.

00:24:26.251 --> 00:24:28.776
I don't know how successful I was, but I mean that's.

00:24:28.776 --> 00:24:29.336
So.

00:24:29.336 --> 00:24:32.619
Can you imagine in the 60s, when we were still we could still be arrested?

00:24:32.619 --> 00:24:33.621
It wasn't good.

00:24:33.621 --> 00:24:34.642
Yeah, so he.

00:24:34.642 --> 00:24:49.682
But so Mark Crow studio Cinema Center Films, and the only thing that happened was they had to get a new director.

00:24:49.682 --> 00:24:51.130
They couldn't have Robert Moore because the studio said we can't have.

00:24:51.130 --> 00:25:02.564
Robert Moore was the original director of the play and Robert Moore was the actor director who played Phyllis's brother on the Mary Tyler Moore Show the one who's gay by the way, ps, cute little aside.

00:25:03.285 --> 00:25:05.128
So William Friedkin came in.

00:25:05.128 --> 00:25:17.347
He had just directed the Birthday Party and he was one of the young Turks coming to Hollywood in the early 70s, like Alan Pakula and Martin Scorsese, who revolutionized film business.

00:25:17.347 --> 00:25:26.148
And these actors were able to create the roles they created on stage in film for posterity.

00:25:26.148 --> 00:25:33.229
Now here's the sad thing is that most of them never hit the same heights again.

00:25:33.229 --> 00:25:35.962
Is it because of the characters they played?

00:25:35.962 --> 00:25:37.880
Is it because of this film?

00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:38.782
Did this film taint it?

00:25:38.782 --> 00:25:39.305
I don't know.

00:25:39.305 --> 00:25:41.844
They all worked after this film.

00:25:41.844 --> 00:25:45.344
I mean, lawrence Luckinbill had a very illustrious career.

00:25:45.344 --> 00:25:45.984
He just wrote his memoir.

00:25:47.494 --> 00:25:51.165
I think, other than Robert Letourneau who played Cowboy, the others did okay.

00:25:51.494 --> 00:25:52.621
They did okay, but they felt.

00:25:52.654 --> 00:25:54.423
He just kind of vanished after 74.

00:25:55.455 --> 00:26:06.400
Yeah, well, they felt very confined, they felt very stereotyped, in particular Cliff Gorman, who plays Emery, you know, probably the bravest of them all, and Cliff Gorman was heterosexual.

00:26:06.881 --> 00:26:07.623
He was not gay.

00:26:08.224 --> 00:26:11.032
Cliff Gorman went on to play Lenny Bruce.

00:26:11.032 --> 00:26:17.496
He won a Tony Award for playing Lenny Bruce in the play version of Lenny, which was later made by Dustin Hoffman as a film.

00:26:17.496 --> 00:26:21.944
He was very angry about what Emery did to his career.

00:26:21.944 --> 00:26:23.307
A lot of these actors.

00:26:23.307 --> 00:26:24.494
Robert Letourneau was as well.

00:26:24.494 --> 00:26:43.261
Robert Letourneau played Cowboy Mark Crowley saw him at a tea dance on Fire Island and said to Robert Moore, that's Cowboy, he was a soap actor and he was very bitter about it, although I don't know if he would have had such a stellar career without the boys in the band or not.

00:26:43.261 --> 00:26:46.346
But a lot of these people you know.

00:26:46.346 --> 00:26:47.809
Leonard Frye was a great actor.

00:26:47.809 --> 00:26:49.460
He did Fiddler on the Roof after this.

00:26:49.539 --> 00:26:51.404
He was nominated for an Academy Award for that.

00:26:51.404 --> 00:26:53.357
He was also a very good looking guy.

00:26:53.357 --> 00:26:55.683
He's not at all like Harold.

00:26:55.683 --> 00:26:58.598
He's not like the ugly pockmarked Jew fairy he plays in this film.

00:26:58.598 --> 00:27:01.446
It's a brilliant character If you think of the newer version.

00:27:08.535 --> 00:27:08.567
I him.

00:27:08.567 --> 00:27:08.915
It's a brilliant character If you think of the newer version.

00:27:08.915 --> 00:27:10.005
I think Zach Quinto is very handsome and he looked like Harold in the newer version.

00:27:10.005 --> 00:27:10.968
Yeah, exactly.

00:27:10.968 --> 00:27:13.288
So these are two very good looking guys who definitely changed their appearance to play this part.

00:27:13.288 --> 00:27:17.728
And Peter White was on All my Children for like 30 years playing Link.

00:27:17.728 --> 00:27:24.238
I remember him from All my Children, as a kid, I'm like, because the first time I saw the boys in the band I went that's Link from all my children.

00:27:24.238 --> 00:27:26.338
So, yes, they worked.

00:27:26.338 --> 00:27:31.362
Kenneth Nelson moved to London and did work in London on London stage for the rest of his life as well.

00:27:31.362 --> 00:27:39.248
So they all worked, but they never really they didn't really hit the heights that this play promised.

00:27:39.248 --> 00:27:40.788
I guess is the great way to say that.

00:27:41.388 --> 00:27:47.556
You mentioned Gorman, Cliff Gorman being so brave to play Emery, who was the most flamboyant of the bunch.

00:27:47.556 --> 00:28:01.268
When I was reading the article that Cliff Gorman and his wife took care of Robert Letourneau when he was dying of AIDS, I'm like his wife, I'm like that had to be a typo.

00:28:01.268 --> 00:28:04.055
He was straight.

00:28:04.055 --> 00:28:06.720
Oh my goodness, I couldn't believe it it's a little surprising, isn't it?

00:28:07.421 --> 00:28:09.115
speaking of stereotypes, you talked about stereotypes.

00:28:09.115 --> 00:28:16.057
I do have my issues with his portrayal of Emery, cliff Gorman's portrayal of Emily.

00:28:16.057 --> 00:28:18.176
I mean, you can draw a line first of all.

00:28:18.176 --> 00:28:21.454
You can draw a line from Emery all the way down to Jack McFarlane.

00:28:21.454 --> 00:28:22.578
I mean, hello, same trajectory same character.

00:28:22.598 --> 00:28:23.201
You can see all lined from.

00:28:23.442 --> 00:28:26.133
Emory all the way down to Jack McFarland of Will and Grace.

00:28:26.133 --> 00:28:31.897
I mean hello, same trajectory, same character.

00:28:31.897 --> 00:28:32.619
You can see the beginnings of it.

00:28:32.619 --> 00:28:33.544
I feel like and Friedkin has said this too.

00:28:33.544 --> 00:28:37.517
William Friedkin said this he feels like he should have toned Cliff Gorman down a little bit.

00:28:37.517 --> 00:28:38.499
They were all theatrical.

00:28:38.499 --> 00:28:51.215
First of all, when William Friedkin agreed to direct this, he wanted three weeks of rehearsal and they were all like what We've been doing, this show for 1001 performances, we do not need to rehearse.

00:28:51.215 --> 00:28:54.603
But he had to rehearse them to bring them down for film.

00:28:54.603 --> 00:28:57.855
Now they're still all very theatrical.

00:28:57.896 --> 00:29:00.442
I think that's another criticism that people have of this film.

00:29:00.442 --> 00:29:07.203
It's very theatrically presented because it is based on a play, but there are ways to do it.

00:29:07.203 --> 00:29:10.134
Virginia Woolf is a prime example.

00:29:10.134 --> 00:29:15.965
Virginia Woolf is an incredibly theatrical play but a wonderfully cinematic film.

00:29:15.965 --> 00:29:21.127
I don't look at Virginia Woolf, the film, and think well, first of all, elizabeth Taylor was not a theater actress.

00:29:21.127 --> 00:29:21.568
So there you go.

00:29:21.568 --> 00:29:22.491
Right now you have a theater actress.

00:29:22.491 --> 00:29:23.394
So there you go.

00:29:23.394 --> 00:29:24.460
Right now you have a film actress.

00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:27.635
So maybe if they had gotten film actors to do this, it would be different.

00:29:27.635 --> 00:29:35.779
But yes, it's a very theatrical presentation and they're all just slightly bit too theatrical.

00:29:35.779 --> 00:29:37.804
Same thing with Kenneth Nelson.

00:29:37.804 --> 00:29:41.699
I think he's just a bit too theatrical, needs to just dial it down just a bit.

00:29:41.699 --> 00:29:46.327
But then I don't know, maybe that's the essence of the play, maybe it isn't.

00:29:52.434 --> 00:29:52.757
I agree with you.

00:29:52.757 --> 00:29:53.239
I actually think it was.

00:29:53.239 --> 00:29:53.863
I'm not going to say a mistake.

00:29:53.863 --> 00:29:54.486
I didn't notice the difference.

00:29:54.486 --> 00:30:03.186
I don't want to go back and forth between the new Netflix version and this version, but I'm going to bring it up because I didn't really notice the theatricality of the original movie until I watched the Netflix series.

00:30:03.186 --> 00:30:07.451
And I'm not going to say Netflix series was better, because it's not, but there were some.

00:30:07.451 --> 00:30:12.957
When I was looking at the casting choices in the different characters, I thought some were better in 70s, some were better in the newer one.

00:30:12.957 --> 00:30:26.105
But one thing I noticed is I felt like the characters were more real in the newer version and then I realized it's because these guys, the other guys, are on stage Exactly, and especially Gorman, he was playing Exactly.

00:30:26.105 --> 00:30:28.864
I felt like I was watching somebody play.

00:30:28.864 --> 00:30:30.560
I was watching somebody, an actor.

00:30:30.560 --> 00:30:32.721
I felt like I was watching an actor every time he was on.

00:30:32.721 --> 00:30:33.605
I didn't buy him.

00:30:33.694 --> 00:30:34.660
You just hit the nail.

00:30:35.096 --> 00:30:37.304
He was the character that I felt the least connected to.

00:30:37.615 --> 00:30:39.597
You just hit the nail on the head with that, which is what I was going to say.

00:30:39.597 --> 00:30:43.122
You know, the interesting thing about the Netflix is it was the exact opposite problem.

00:30:43.122 --> 00:30:55.807
You have TV and film actors Matt Bomer, jim Parsons, zachary Quintero who are TV and film, now having to play on stage Because I saw the Broadway version of the Netflix.

00:30:56.208 --> 00:30:56.489
Oh, did you.

00:30:56.494 --> 00:30:57.196
This was the.

00:30:57.196 --> 00:31:04.481
I saw it in New York with the same cast and they had the reverse opposite, the reverse problem that the original actors had.

00:31:04.481 --> 00:31:11.669
The original actors had to bring down their performances and the ones on the Netflix had to bring them up for the stage.

00:31:11.669 --> 00:31:15.826
So it makes sense that when you're watching the Netflix one, that's their comfort zone.

00:31:15.826 --> 00:31:19.301
Yeah, they're all TV and film actors, so they can do that.

00:31:19.301 --> 00:31:24.202
It's the exact opposite with the film version and I think they all did a fantastic job.

00:31:24.202 --> 00:31:26.140
By the way, I really don't.

00:31:26.140 --> 00:31:30.714
Like I said, I have some problems with Cliff Gorman, but that's more of a directing thing.

00:31:30.714 --> 00:31:34.925
William Friedkin should have said to him bring it down a little bit, bring it down a little bit.

00:31:34.945 --> 00:31:35.406
But he didn't.

00:31:35.494 --> 00:31:38.984
He wanted to capture this outrageous performance of.

00:31:39.125 --> 00:31:42.123
Emery Tony, I'm stopping our conversation real quick.

00:31:42.335 --> 00:31:42.596
Why?

00:31:42.596 --> 00:31:45.204
Why we're in the middle of a podcast.

00:31:45.674 --> 00:31:48.181
But this is about the podcast and it's very important.

00:31:48.422 --> 00:31:48.923
Okay.

00:31:49.403 --> 00:31:49.765
Listener.

00:31:49.765 --> 00:31:55.567
Whatever app you're listening on, whether it's on the computer or on the phone, reach your finger or your mouse over.

00:31:55.567 --> 00:31:57.278
It usually says follow.

00:31:57.278 --> 00:31:59.784
Some still say subscribe and click that.

00:31:59.784 --> 00:32:01.857
And what's going to happen when they do that, tony?

00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:07.123
They're going to get notified when a new episode is available and they can listen to us again.

00:32:07.123 --> 00:32:08.779
You know, I don't want to miss that.

00:32:08.779 --> 00:32:11.580
No, can we get back to the episode that we were recording?

00:32:11.580 --> 00:32:12.522
Of course, please.

00:32:12.522 --> 00:32:13.946
Of course, all right, thank you.

00:32:13.946 --> 00:32:15.915
Don't forget to subscribe and follow.

00:32:16.115 --> 00:32:16.537
There you go.

00:32:16.537 --> 00:32:22.682
I have a question about Robin de Jesus, who played Emery in the Netflix version.

00:32:22.682 --> 00:32:25.003
I believe I've seen him in other things.

00:32:25.003 --> 00:32:27.826
He is a flamboyant man.

00:32:27.826 --> 00:32:29.247
He is effeminate, am I correct?

00:32:29.247 --> 00:32:31.028
Yeah, well, I think he was in Tick Tick Boom.

00:32:31.028 --> 00:32:37.843
Okay, I know, I saw Tick Tick Boom not too long ago because I really like Andrew Garfield as an actor, but I believed him as Emery.

00:32:44.275 --> 00:32:45.596
Yeah, well, emery, the other guy felt like he was acting like Emery.

00:32:45.596 --> 00:32:48.298
I've seen quite a few productions of this play and Emery's always the tricky one.

00:32:48.298 --> 00:32:50.922
Emery can really divide people.

00:32:50.922 --> 00:32:59.851
You need a very, very technically skilled actor to play Emery, otherwise it comes out especially now because we've had, you know all I said, the Jack McFarlanes.

00:32:59.851 --> 00:33:00.652
We have this idea.

00:33:00.652 --> 00:33:02.557
He's such a stereotype.

00:33:02.557 --> 00:33:07.304
Now it's a very tricky part to play and I think Robin de Jesus did an incredible job.

00:33:07.423 --> 00:33:08.045
Yes, I agree.

00:33:08.404 --> 00:33:09.727
I also love the fact that they made him.

00:33:09.727 --> 00:33:16.895
You know that he wasn't this white gay guy anymore.

00:33:16.895 --> 00:33:17.175
They gave him.

00:33:17.175 --> 00:33:19.621
You know he's a man of color and I loved that they did that with that show, with that particular performance.

00:33:19.861 --> 00:33:24.630
And I think until somebody knows an Emory they will think Emory is a gross stereotype.

00:33:24.775 --> 00:33:26.220
Yeah, but there are people like Emory.

00:33:26.582 --> 00:33:27.263
Oh, I know, Emory.

00:33:27.655 --> 00:33:33.246
Yeah, that's the thing I know several Emory, so when people criticize this play about oh, the stereotypes in it, but they're real.

00:33:33.246 --> 00:33:35.922
There are people who are like this.

00:33:36.174 --> 00:33:37.240
And they're also full of drama.

00:33:38.815 --> 00:33:39.757
Exactly, exactly.

00:33:39.757 --> 00:33:43.003
So I have a real problem when people say, oh my God, they're so stereotypical.

00:33:43.003 --> 00:33:45.067
These people exist.

00:33:46.276 --> 00:33:47.721
Every one of these people exist in my world.

00:33:48.935 --> 00:33:55.823
Yeah, and I said, and I have been to parties that could have easily degenerated into a party almost as bad as this.

00:33:55.823 --> 00:34:00.547
So I think those criticisms are, they're all out there.

00:34:00.547 --> 00:34:04.131
There's some validity to some of them and not so much to others.

00:34:04.131 --> 00:34:05.491
That's the way I feel about it.

00:34:06.075 --> 00:34:07.380
So let's talk about Cowboy.

00:34:07.801 --> 00:34:10.159
Okay, robert Letourneau.

00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:11.342
I love his character.

00:34:11.342 --> 00:34:13.021
I'm very sad for his character.

00:34:13.021 --> 00:34:14.420
They are brutal.

00:34:14.420 --> 00:34:16.280
It's a very sad character isn't it.

00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:18.016
Yes, he is.

00:34:18.016 --> 00:34:20.646
I don't know, he's basically a hustler.

00:34:26.715 --> 00:34:27.778
He was hired for $20 for the night.

00:34:27.778 --> 00:34:28.561
No, he was not basically a hustler.

00:34:28.561 --> 00:34:28.862
He's a hustler.

00:34:28.882 --> 00:34:29.525
He's not basically a hustler.

00:34:29.525 --> 00:34:30.288
He finds him on 42nd Street.

00:34:30.288 --> 00:34:30.789
He's a hustler.

00:34:30.789 --> 00:34:33.795
Okay, yeah, he's a hustler, yes, and he's not the brightest one that you've ever met.

00:34:33.795 --> 00:34:36.820
So he's hired for 20 bucks for the night, which sounds like pretty good money.

00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:41.744
Back then he was a birthday present from Emery to Harold, the birthday boy.

00:34:41.744 --> 00:34:47.530
Right, he is very dense, sometimes a little bit to the point of absurdity, but that's okay.

00:34:47.530 --> 00:34:51.563
He was still a fun character, but the others are so brutal to him.

00:34:51.684 --> 00:34:51.905
Yeah.

00:34:51.994 --> 00:34:54.463
Just so cruel and so condescending.

00:34:54.704 --> 00:34:54.945
They are.

00:34:55.556 --> 00:34:59.967
And it'd be okay if it was a joke here and there, but my God, they just didn't let up.

00:35:00.135 --> 00:35:01.681
Well, there's a certain amount of jealousy there.

00:35:03.554 --> 00:35:04.583
Well, there's a certain amount of jealousy there.

00:35:04.583 --> 00:35:04.836
Well, there is.

00:35:04.836 --> 00:35:05.157
That's exactly what I felt.

00:35:05.157 --> 00:35:09.282
First of all, there was the jealousy, yeah, and there was also the contempt that he didn't have the culture that they had.

00:35:09.282 --> 00:35:10.405
So it was a little of both.

00:35:11.036 --> 00:35:12.360
Well, I mean, that's such a gay thing.

00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:13.242
I mean that jealousy.

00:35:13.242 --> 00:35:14.266
What does Harold say?

00:35:14.266 --> 00:35:22.269
You know this poor boy of that transitory beauty, wouldn't you?

00:35:22.269 --> 00:35:22.590
Michael?

00:35:22.831 --> 00:35:25.411
I mean, I just paraphrased the hell out of it, but that's basically what it is.

00:35:25.411 --> 00:35:26.452
It's so tragic.

00:35:26.452 --> 00:35:30.364
He's saying His face is so tragic, referring to the fact that it's going to become tragic.

00:35:31.016 --> 00:35:33.143
Yes, what a tragedy this boy's face is.

00:35:33.143 --> 00:35:33.755
Yeah, I mean.

00:35:33.755 --> 00:35:36.356
But you know, I know lots of gay men who talk like that.

00:35:36.356 --> 00:35:38.378
Oh yes, who behave?

00:35:38.378 --> 00:35:39.679
I mean, there's a real jealousy.

00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:42.342
It's the same thing, it's you know what?

00:35:42.342 --> 00:35:45.563
Doesn't Michael say that fags are worse than women about growing older?

00:35:45.563 --> 00:35:47.405
And to them, growing older is 30.

00:35:47.405 --> 00:35:50.568
Yes, oh, fags think their life's over at 30.

00:35:50.568 --> 00:35:54.490
And I'm sorry for dropping the F word, but you know, that's what they say in the play.

00:35:55.271 --> 00:35:56.552
I don't want to dance around that either.

00:35:56.552 --> 00:36:01.925
Yeah, and you know, one thing I'm glad is I'm glad that's not true as much anymore.

00:36:01.925 --> 00:36:06.905
There are still guys in their 20s they're like, oh God, anybody over 30 might as well be dead.

00:36:06.905 --> 00:36:13.228
But what I like is that guys over their 30s and guys in their 40s and guys in the 40s, 50s and 60s no longer feel like they're dead.

00:36:13.228 --> 00:36:15.740
I think they did back in the older days.

00:36:16.664 --> 00:36:17.385
Well, I hope not.

00:36:17.385 --> 00:36:30.860
I mean I hope that we get to the point we're also in a different age, but I hope we've gotten to the point in our lives where we get to the point in our lives where we realize we do get better as we get older and we don't behave the way we do.

00:36:30.860 --> 00:36:34.880
I always think it's funny that they think I mean, these are all men clearly are in their 30s.

00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:41.360
I always think it's funny that Harold's only 32, because he looks a little bit older than 32, if you ask me.

00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:48.230
But that's one thing I like about the revival is that I don't think they play up on that as much.

00:36:48.230 --> 00:36:55.306
But you know, youth culture, gay culture, is no different than everybody else's culture in that youth culture rules.

00:36:55.306 --> 00:36:57.802
And here is this young boy.

00:36:57.802 --> 00:36:59.315
Think about Cowboy for a minute, you know.

00:36:59.315 --> 00:37:01.844
You think about a hustler in Times Square.

00:37:01.844 --> 00:37:11.922
You think of what's his name from Mid cowboy you think of, like, not ratso rizzo, he wasn't the hustler but uh, joe buck, john voight's character, and same same, same kind of thing.

00:37:11.922 --> 00:37:12.605
You know what I mean.

00:37:12.605 --> 00:37:13.385
He was he.

00:37:14.128 --> 00:37:28.184
This is a kid who's trying to make his way in life, who's maybe not the smartest, doesn't have the tools that these other men do, and he's invited into this viper's nest of a birthday party and you know what he comes out.

00:37:28.184 --> 00:37:34.965
He's the only one, basically, other than Donald, who doesn't play the game, who doesn't come out humiliated.

00:37:34.965 --> 00:37:41.527
You know, bernard, emery, they're all well, hank and Larry don't either, because they have that kind of come together moment.

00:37:41.527 --> 00:37:49.800
But I mean he have that kind of come together moment, but I mean he's just kind of like observing it and actually he comes out in the end in the best, because he's going to make some money.

00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:54.199
Yeah he's got to go to bed with Harold, but he's going to make some money, which I think is interesting.

00:37:54.199 --> 00:38:12.690
You know there was a scene that was cut that was not in the play that they wanted to film in which there was a kiss between Hank and Larry after they have their makeup and they go upstairs to Michael's room and Larry is walking towards the door and goes inside and Michael says what do you think is going on up there to Alan?

00:38:12.690 --> 00:38:16.302
And there was actually a scene they filmed that the actors were very ambivalent about it.

00:38:16.302 --> 00:38:23.568
First they agreed to do it and then they didn't want to do it and then William Friedkin said let's just shoot it and see if we need it.

00:38:23.568 --> 00:38:30.775
And it was a scene of them kissing and they filmed it and they realized that they really didn't need it.

00:38:30.775 --> 00:38:32.121
It was superfluous.

00:38:32.282 --> 00:38:33.288
No, it would detract from it.

00:38:33.447 --> 00:38:33.670
It was.

00:38:33.670 --> 00:38:39.445
Yeah, it was not important to the story, but it's interesting that these actors again so brave.

00:38:39.445 --> 00:38:49.264
How brave were these actors I was saying earlier about and they are Matt Bomer, jonathan Bailey being so brave for doing these roles now?

00:38:49.264 --> 00:38:52.217
Think about that in the mid-60s.

00:38:52.217 --> 00:38:52.637
How?

00:38:52.818 --> 00:39:15.541
brave these actors were to do these parts, and of the nine of them and I want to get to this point because this is another, this is kind of the legacy of the boys in the band the film Of these nine actors, six identified as gay men and six and the director, robert Moore of the play died of AIDS.

00:39:15.902 --> 00:39:17.806
Actually, Ruben Green died of a heart attack.

00:39:18.114 --> 00:39:18.896
Well, he disappeared.

00:39:18.896 --> 00:39:20.322
Nobody knows where he is.

00:39:20.322 --> 00:39:20.943
He's still alive.

00:39:21.614 --> 00:39:25.503
Oh, because I just I have found very mixed stuff on him.

00:39:25.503 --> 00:39:28.675
So, yeah, you could be right, because I found that he's missing.

00:39:28.675 --> 00:39:30.280
I found that he died 20 years ago.

00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:31.563
I found that he died 10 years ago.

00:39:31.563 --> 00:39:33.820
So, yeah, I'll take your word that he's still missing.

00:39:34.235 --> 00:39:38.418
Yeah, william Friedkin said he hasn't heard from Ruben Green distance.

00:39:38.418 --> 00:39:40.221
Ruben Green plays Bernard.

00:39:40.221 --> 00:39:44.925
He's the African-American, the only African-American character, and he was a model.

00:39:44.925 --> 00:39:47.407
He wasn't an actor, he was a model.

00:39:47.407 --> 00:39:53.052
He did this part, he did a couple other TV shows and then he distanced himself from this film and kind of disappeared.

00:39:53.052 --> 00:40:02.358
All the cast members, the surviving cast members, say they have had no contact with him, don't know where he is, what he is.

00:40:02.358 --> 00:40:03.219
So if he's alive, if he's dead, who knows?

00:40:03.219 --> 00:40:12.510
But you know, the plain truth is that Kenneth Nelson, leonard Frye, frederick Combs, keith Prentiss, robert Letourneau all died of AIDS.

00:40:12.510 --> 00:40:20.668
That is one of the most devastating, devastating legacies of this film.

00:40:20.668 --> 00:40:23.260
Yeah, I think it's terribly sad.

00:40:23.300 --> 00:40:34.445
I'll tell you, I was looking when I was looking at each of these cast members and Kenneth Nelson I saw he died at 63 and 93 and, like 93, 93 and 94 were the two biggest years for AIDS deaths in the United States.

00:40:34.445 --> 00:40:36.978
Leonard Fry 49 and 88.

00:40:36.978 --> 00:40:39.721
Keith Prentiss he was 52 and 92.

00:40:39.721 --> 00:40:57.202
I started looking at these ages and looking at these years and my heart was sinking because I knew before, I saw how they died Right and sure enough, every one of them died of AIDS-related death and it just you know, I've shared before that I was removed because of where I lived and being in the closet at the same time.

00:40:58.094 --> 00:41:00.103
Aids was this thing that went on elsewhere.

00:41:00.103 --> 00:41:03.047
You know it was that thing that was out there that people were talking about.

00:41:03.047 --> 00:41:19.559
And to watch these characters and much as I say they irritate the hell out of me I grew to like these characters at the same time and then afterwards to see that these actors, who I like their characters and I respected that they were able to do this, to see almost all of them die of AIDS.

00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:19.860
It's just.

00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:20.724
It's devastating.

00:41:21.074 --> 00:41:22.056
I was actually in tears.

00:41:22.056 --> 00:41:22.797
I was in tears.

00:41:23.619 --> 00:41:28.668
It really is the gut punch epilogue to this film.

00:41:28.876 --> 00:41:35.324
Well, when my friends tell me that we're out at that time and they say they lost almost everybody they knew, well, you know, that's kind of an abstract thing.

00:41:35.844 --> 00:41:36.146
It is.

00:41:36.735 --> 00:41:38.983
But then I look at this movie and see all these guys are gone.

00:41:39.543 --> 00:41:44.155
I thought the same thing and I'm gone.

00:41:44.175 --> 00:41:44.737
I thought the same thing.

00:41:44.757 --> 00:41:47.284
I thought that's such an abstract concept and then you see it in front of you.

00:41:47.284 --> 00:41:52.862
Yeah, that's exactly what it was that six of the people in this production we lost to this plague.

00:41:52.862 --> 00:41:54.666
And I think that.

00:41:54.666 --> 00:41:58.956
Oh you know, I do not agree with cancel culture at all.

00:41:58.956 --> 00:42:04.568
Obviously, if somebody does something heinous like breaks a law, that's one thing.

00:42:04.568 --> 00:42:05.737
That's not cancel culture.

00:42:05.737 --> 00:42:13.659
When people talk about this film, you know what's the very famous saying those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.

00:42:13.659 --> 00:42:36.925
If people think that we are safe in this world and in our wonderful lives where we can get married now and adopt children and have wonderful Sunday fun days out partying, if they don't think that can change and we can go back to a time in the 60s when this play was put on, they're crazy.

00:42:36.925 --> 00:42:40.717
So that's why I say don't no, you don't cancel the boys in the band.

00:42:40.717 --> 00:42:53.576
You look at it and you say pay attention, because we have to fight for this every day, otherwise we end up right back here, and I feel the same way with AIDS.

00:42:53.596 --> 00:42:55.239
Obviously, I just got off AIDS life cycle, so I'm a little bit on my soapbox here.

00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:56.442
People think AIDS is over.

00:42:56.442 --> 00:42:58.945
It ain't over, it ain't over.

00:42:58.945 --> 00:43:06.489
People are still getting HIV Now, maybe they're living with it, but they have to take very strong medications for the rest of their lives.

00:43:06.489 --> 00:43:17.795
I'm not going to turn this into an HIV podcast either, but what I'm saying is that that pisses me off when people say negative things about this film and want to forget about it and erase our culture.

00:43:18.036 --> 00:43:29.442
Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, and these men are a living example, I was reading in a Facebook group these very similar statements being made about Philadelphia and how it's so outdated.

00:43:29.442 --> 00:43:31.927
Oh, absolutely, boy.

00:43:31.927 --> 00:43:32.771
I jumped in on that.

00:43:32.771 --> 00:43:39.233
I said look, I just talked to Ron, let me tell you what I think Good, and I don't know if I set them straight.

00:43:39.233 --> 00:43:41.688
I will say one thing I'm really happy happened.

00:43:41.688 --> 00:43:41.949
You know.

00:43:41.949 --> 00:43:50.574
I'm sure a lot of people were really upset that Ryan Murphy and Netflix decided to remake this film, because it is a classic and people hate it when classics are remade.

00:43:50.574 --> 00:43:56.817
But what I love about it is they've reached an audience that never would have gone and watched this 1970 film.

00:43:56.858 --> 00:43:57.298
I agree with you.

00:43:57.485 --> 00:43:58.731
They never would have looked at anything.

00:43:58.731 --> 00:44:00.246
But they say, ooh, matt Bomber's in it.

00:44:00.246 --> 00:44:01.327
They I never would have looked at anything.

00:44:01.327 --> 00:44:02.226
But they say, ooh, matt Bomber's in it.

00:44:02.226 --> 00:44:02.668
And this guy's in it.

00:44:02.668 --> 00:44:05.389
They're on Netflix and they saw a film that they never would have seen otherwise.

00:44:05.449 --> 00:44:07.471
I agree with you, you know, and I have my issues with Ryan Murphy.

00:44:07.471 --> 00:44:13.034
Oh I do and some of the things he does, but what I love about that is that it was a Broadway play first.

00:44:13.034 --> 00:44:32.210
He put it on Broadway, where it finally—what a win, thank God, that Mark Crowley lived to see his creation on Broadway, where it should have always been, and then to win the Tony Award as Best Revival and then to have it open to a wider audience on Netflix is wonderful.

00:44:32.230 --> 00:44:34.094
You know, mark Crowley didn't.

00:44:34.094 --> 00:44:36.969
After this he kind of went back to his dilettante life.

00:44:36.969 --> 00:44:37.974
You know what I mean.

00:44:37.974 --> 00:44:39.322
He was very much like Michael.

00:44:39.322 --> 00:44:43.496
He was traveling from city to city and the only place he was ever happy was on the goddamn plane.

00:44:43.496 --> 00:44:48.230
And it wasn't until Natalie Wood came to his rescue once again with Robert Wagner.

00:44:48.230 --> 00:44:51.835
By now they were remarried and said would you come to LA and work on Heart to Heart?

00:44:51.835 --> 00:44:57.213
And he produced Heart to Heart and then of course the tragedy with Natalie Wood happened.

00:44:57.213 --> 00:45:03.717
And what's interesting about Mark Crowley is Mark Crowley did write a sequel.

00:45:03.717 --> 00:45:06.393
Did you know there was a sequel to this play, boys in the Band?

00:45:06.525 --> 00:45:07.530
No, I had no idea.

00:45:07.992 --> 00:45:08.965
Yeah, he.

00:45:08.965 --> 00:45:16.434
He wrote a sequel in 2002 called the Men from the Boys, and this is what's kind of interesting about that.

00:45:16.434 --> 00:45:26.550
So he's he's written it post AIDS the characters all get together for the funeral of Larry, who hasn't died of AIDS, he's died of pancreatic cancer.

00:45:26.550 --> 00:45:31.266
It had its premiere in San Francisco and it just never went anywhere.

00:45:31.266 --> 00:45:36.163
I think it's interesting that he didn't address the AIDS crisis.

00:45:36.163 --> 00:45:44.474
If you're going to address that, maybe it's because of these friends of his that he lost due to the crisis and he didn't want to revisit that so literally.

00:45:44.474 --> 00:45:47.012
So maybe he made the pancreatic cancer.

00:45:47.012 --> 00:45:52.856
But I find that really interesting that he wrote the sequel that totally did not deal with the AIDS crisis.

00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:54.478
Interesting.

00:45:55.025 --> 00:45:56.190
Yeah, that is really interesting.

00:45:56.190 --> 00:45:57.193
I don't know.

00:45:57.193 --> 00:46:02.572
Yeah, I don't know why he didn't do that, but maybe again, maybe it's because he lost these dear dear people.

00:46:02.572 --> 00:46:06.465
Yeah, I don't know why he didn't do that, but maybe again, maybe it's because he lost these dear dear people.

00:46:06.465 --> 00:46:09.166
Do you want?

00:46:09.186 --> 00:46:10.909
to tell us a little bit about how this film did when it was released?

00:46:10.909 --> 00:46:14.474
Well, I do, and the numbers are a little odd, so maybe you can help me with some of this.

00:46:14.474 --> 00:46:17.398
First of all, I do want to talk about the play, because you mentioned the play.

00:46:17.398 --> 00:46:21.242
Sure, lawrence Luckinbill said he went and cashed.

00:46:21.242 --> 00:46:32.411
He was in a soap opera, I guess, did a little role at the time and he went and cashed his check that he made at the soap opera and he passed the theater and he saw the line that he said was it was way down going down the street with 500 people.

00:46:32.652 --> 00:46:32.831
Yeah.

00:46:33.025 --> 00:46:37.286
And he initially thought the theater was burning down so instantly.

00:46:37.286 --> 00:46:38.128
It was popular then.

00:46:38.128 --> 00:46:48.451
And then the budget for this film is pretty amazing to me because, given the topic and the time, now I'm getting two different numbers.

00:46:48.451 --> 00:46:51.396
Imdb said this movie costs $1.3 million to make.

00:46:52.045 --> 00:46:56.644
Every other source I see, including the movie database, is $5.5 million.

00:46:56.644 --> 00:47:08.094
Either of those numbers are pretty astounding when you consider that MASH MASH was $3.5 million to make, butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid $6 million to make.

00:47:08.094 --> 00:47:13.036
Now there were other bigger hits, but those were hits that were made on what today we would consider a very low budget.

00:47:13.036 --> 00:47:17.614
And this movie wasn't that far behind really, especially at the $5.5 million exact yet.

00:47:17.614 --> 00:47:23.496
Yeah, so the fact that it was given that much money, I don't know where it came from, you may know.

00:47:23.945 --> 00:47:35.963
It was Cinema Center Films which CBS owned, which was a CBS company, Okay, but I saw those figures too and I got to tell you I'm wondering 5.5 million in 1970 was a shit ton of money.

00:47:36.184 --> 00:47:36.344
Yeah.

00:47:36.445 --> 00:47:39.650
For a one set film.

00:47:39.650 --> 00:47:42.215
This film takes place on one set.

00:47:42.215 --> 00:47:47.775
There were exteriors, fabulous exteriors of New York in the late sixties on the Upper East Side.

00:47:47.775 --> 00:47:57.536
There was a shot in Julius's bar in the West village which they replicated in the Ryan Murphy version, which I love, and Mark Crowley's in the in the on the in the bar scene.

00:47:57.536 --> 00:47:58.762
So if you watch it again, look for Mark Crowley, he's against the window.

00:47:58.762 --> 00:48:01.565
If you watch it again, look for Mark Crowley, he's against the window.

00:48:01.565 --> 00:48:07.251
So, yeah, I find it difficult to believe that they spent $5.5 million on this.

00:48:07.692 --> 00:48:12.115
I agree with you and I will say that I looked at five big hit movies from 1970.

00:48:12.115 --> 00:48:17.541
And the IMDb dollar amount matched all these other sites verbatim.

00:48:17.541 --> 00:48:22.610
This was the only one that I saw huge discrepancy and I, like you, I'm leaning more towards.

00:48:22.610 --> 00:48:26.036
They used somebody's real patio and then they built one set.

00:48:26.297 --> 00:48:26.938
Yes exactly.

00:48:27.085 --> 00:48:30.835
I am leaning towards more believing the 1.3 million, which to me still is a pretty big deal.

00:48:31.605 --> 00:48:33.793
These actors were not getting million-dollar salaries either.

00:48:34.724 --> 00:48:39.797
What would have been just a very cheap indie film that nobody would have saw normally.

00:48:40.025 --> 00:48:42.471
Yeah, I would tend to agree with the other thing.

00:48:42.471 --> 00:48:47.532
And you know, because of its subject matter, you know it had very limited release.

00:48:47.532 --> 00:48:55.652
Obviously it played in New York, it played in Los Angeles, it played in the cities, but you know it wasn't about to play in Peoria, you know, or Omaha.

00:48:55.652 --> 00:49:14.336
So it's the fact that the figures I got of it it made $3.5 million, which seems a little more in line with, you know, if it cost about $1 million, $2 million to make, then it made a small, small profit which was a win, you know, considering it had such limited release.

00:49:14.336 --> 00:49:23.396
But here's the interesting thing about this and I kind of alluded to it before, about how this movie was being filmed 20 blocks away from Stonewall.

00:49:23.456 --> 00:49:32.639
At the same time this movie went into production in 1969 as a groundbreaking event.

00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:39.824
By the time it was released, and we're talking about a year, it was suddenly retrograde.

00:49:39.824 --> 00:49:43.815
It was suddenly somebody called it the gay Uncle Tom's cabin.

00:49:43.815 --> 00:49:53.284
That is how much society changed in the year between beginning of this film and the time it was released.

00:49:53.284 --> 00:49:57.076
So this film really kind of got a bum rap in that respect.

00:49:58.405 --> 00:50:08.157
And when they had the revival of it, the very first revival in 1996, off-broadway, which I also saw, ben Bradley began his review with.

00:50:08.157 --> 00:50:19.373
I guess it's okay to like the boys in the band again, because it got a really bad rap, because people didn't want to be pushed back into the closet and so many people thought this film represented the closet.

00:50:19.373 --> 00:50:22.922
Well it did, Because it takes place in a time where the closet was still very much a reality, and that's the criticism of this film represented the closet.

00:50:22.922 --> 00:50:26.972
Well it did, because it takes place in a time where the closet was still very much a reality, and that's the criticism of this film.

00:50:26.972 --> 00:50:40.650
I think you have to, as I said before, you have to separate that and you have to look at this as the historic time capsule of an era and hope to God we don't ever go back to that era again.

00:50:41.353 --> 00:50:42.195
I agree, and you know what.

00:50:42.195 --> 00:50:43.972
I can totally see why all that happened.

00:50:43.972 --> 00:50:50.675
This was just really bad timing for this one year for this film, because this was filmed before Stonewall.

00:50:50.675 --> 00:50:52.304
It came out after Stonewall.

00:50:52.304 --> 00:50:56.315
All of a sudden we're out and we're not all miserable and we're not all psychopaths.

00:50:56.315 --> 00:51:02.539
And you know, nobody was saying we're just like you, because everybody wanted to emphasize they weren't, but they were still okay.

00:51:02.539 --> 00:51:06.103
But when I say everybody, I'm always generalizing.

00:51:06.103 --> 00:51:10.715
I could see why somebody at that point were like, okay, we're getting out of that.

00:51:10.715 --> 00:51:13.494
And now, oh, look there, we're miserable again.

00:51:13.494 --> 00:51:17.755
I could see why somebody at that point would say, oh, why did why no?

00:51:18.197 --> 00:51:18.396
Yeah.

00:51:19.045 --> 00:51:20.210
I can understand why that happened.

00:51:20.210 --> 00:51:21.514
It was bad timing.

00:51:21.653 --> 00:51:21.855
It was.

00:51:21.855 --> 00:51:22.494
It was bad timing, it was.

00:51:22.494 --> 00:51:33.978
It was unfortunate, and that could be another reason why these actors' careers didn't exactly skyrocket the way that you think they would have when you're a part of this groundbreaking film.

00:51:33.978 --> 00:51:34.820
Think of Virginia Woolf.

00:51:34.820 --> 00:51:38.081
They all got nominated for Oscars for Virginia Woolf.

00:51:38.081 --> 00:51:39.840
This movie got nominated for no Oscars.

00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:55.570
Now, I'm not saying that Oscars necessarily equate with a good film, but you know they're a good barometer for it and there were no Oscar nominations for this film and this film just kind of went away, you know, it just kind of died.

00:51:55.724 --> 00:51:57.427
It was that, the urban myth of this.

00:51:57.427 --> 00:52:02.538
You know of this, not this terrible film, but this film that paints us in such a bad light.

00:52:02.538 --> 00:52:05.925
You know of this, not this terrible film, but this film that paints us in such a bad light.

00:52:05.925 --> 00:52:12.170
And what I love is with the revivals in 96 and 2018 and the Netflix.

00:52:12.170 --> 00:52:14.817
And then they just recently released this film on DVD in a beautiful, pristine condition.

00:52:14.817 --> 00:52:15.900
The colors are gorgeous.

00:52:15.900 --> 00:52:20.635
This film is being looked at as with the respect it deserves.

00:52:20.635 --> 00:52:30.257
This, this film deserves the respect of every single gay man, every single queer person who watches it, because it was the first.

00:52:30.257 --> 00:52:39.126
It might not be the best, but it said it before anybody else had the guts to say it and put it out there for all the world to see.

00:52:39.126 --> 00:52:43.097
So for that reason I will always applaud Boys in the Band, always.

00:52:43.746 --> 00:52:47.773
And I will now get to you what my feeling is, because I told you what my feeling was about this movie before I watched it.

00:52:47.773 --> 00:52:49.592
Uh-oh, and I said I'm going to watch it with an open mic.

00:52:50.606 --> 00:52:52.112
Gird your loins people.

00:52:52.664 --> 00:52:53.911
No, actually it's good.

00:52:53.911 --> 00:52:55.431
I still find it disturbing.

00:52:55.431 --> 00:53:09.554
It was much more disturbing than I expected, but I have a huge respect for this movie and I didn't know how to verbalize it until I read it in.

00:53:09.554 --> 00:53:13.090
It may have been Washington Blade, I don't know where I read this.

00:53:13.090 --> 00:53:22.097
That what this movie did before this movie, gays were always depicted as the psychopath or the depressed, the sick individual.

00:53:22.097 --> 00:53:30.130
They were sick, Right, and this movie was the first, or at least the first, to garner attention that said we're not gay because we're sick.

00:53:30.130 --> 00:53:33.273
We're sick because we're gay because of how society treats us.

00:53:33.494 --> 00:53:33.614
Ooh.

00:53:34.045 --> 00:53:38.376
If we're unhappy, it's because of society, not because of who we are or what we are.

00:53:39.045 --> 00:53:40.349
That's a beautiful, that's beautifully put.

00:53:40.349 --> 00:53:44.931
Brad, I was almost going to have a quick comeback Like why don't you not tell me about it?

00:53:44.931 --> 00:53:46.869
But I like that that's.

00:53:46.869 --> 00:53:49.409
That's very, that's very beautifully put.

00:53:49.409 --> 00:53:49.869
Yeah.

00:53:50.030 --> 00:53:50.612
It's very true.

00:53:50.954 --> 00:53:51.556
It is very true.

00:53:51.556 --> 00:53:53.150
This movie may not deserve.

00:53:53.150 --> 00:53:56.114
This movie may not receive, uh, the glory.

00:53:56.114 --> 00:54:00.572
Your love as hell deserves your respect.

00:54:01.393 --> 00:54:04.157
Exactly, it's not a movie I want to sit down and just relax and watch.

00:54:04.157 --> 00:54:05.018
It's not that at all.

00:54:05.018 --> 00:54:07.994
No, but I do have a huge respect for the film, absolutely.

00:54:08.324 --> 00:54:10.351
And I don't think any film can ask for more than that.

00:54:10.994 --> 00:54:11.155
Yeah.

00:54:11.605 --> 00:54:12.670
Well, I think that's great.

00:54:12.670 --> 00:54:14.228
I think we just did the boys in the band.

00:54:14.228 --> 00:54:15.472
How about that?

00:54:15.893 --> 00:54:16.534
I think we did.

00:54:16.956 --> 00:54:17.717
Thanks everybody.

00:54:17.717 --> 00:54:30.465
We still need an ending.

00:54:30.465 --> 00:54:35.639
Oh, I think I always wanted to mention okay, I should have mentioned this before we have a playlist on spotify that brad has created and I add to uh, for all the songs that I can't sing on this podcast.

00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:42.806
Um, you can go to our spotify to going hollywood uh podcast and listen to some of the wonderful songs that we talk about from a lot of these movies that we discuss and we pick and choose.

00:54:42.887 --> 00:54:46.211
I was putting a whole playlist and I realized, no, no, not all of that's good.

00:54:46.211 --> 00:54:47.670
So we do pick and choose from the films.

00:54:47.911 --> 00:54:48.373
You were.

00:54:48.373 --> 00:54:50.172
I looked at the one you did for Fellow Travelers.

00:54:50.172 --> 00:54:51.449
I was like Jesus man.

00:54:51.809 --> 00:54:53.255
How many songs I took all those out.

00:54:53.255 --> 00:54:57.469
I took only the ones that had vocals in them.

00:54:57.509 --> 00:54:59.530
Yeah, and don't forget to rate and review us, please.

00:54:59.530 --> 00:55:05.655
Oh, one last thing Thank you to all the people who have rated and reviewed us, given us five stars.

00:55:05.655 --> 00:55:07.137
That's really lovely.

00:55:07.137 --> 00:55:08.617
You know, brad and I.

00:55:08.617 --> 00:55:13.021
It may not be hard to believe, but Brad and I have other jobs that we do.

00:55:13.021 --> 00:55:34.076
We're both incredibly busy people and this is truly this podcast for me and I hope I speak for Brad is truly a labor of love, and to have your positive feedback and to have your encouragement means the world to us, and I just want to say thank you for that, for everybody who's taken the time to give us a five-star rating or to write a review.

00:55:34.076 --> 00:55:34.817
It's fabulous.

00:55:34.817 --> 00:55:37.617
So thank you very much, everybody, and for listening always.

00:55:37.797 --> 00:55:41.601
Podcasting is a lonely business because we sit here and we talk on microphones.

00:55:41.601 --> 00:55:45.282
We see each other, but then it goes out in the world and we may see people are listening to it or whatever.

00:55:45.282 --> 00:55:47.588
But that's it.

00:55:47.588 --> 00:55:50.273
Unless you let us know you're just numbers and we don't want that.

00:55:50.353 --> 00:55:52.275
And we appreciate it I don't care about the numbers.

00:55:52.335 --> 00:56:01.411
I want to hear what your thoughts are, and actually there's a way you can, if you'd like to tell where your opinions are of the movies and our thoughts on them.

00:56:01.411 --> 00:56:05.135
In the show notes of every episode it says text us your opinion or comment.

00:56:05.135 --> 00:56:06.396
Text it to us.

00:56:06.396 --> 00:56:09.400
We can't respond, but we will read it to you on the air, so make sure you tell us your name.

00:56:09.641 --> 00:56:11.891
Yeah, and if you want to give us a suggestion of a film to watch.

00:56:11.891 --> 00:56:13.164
You know we were just talking about.