The Kate Debate: Triumph or Torture in "Alice Adams”?

Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian, Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.


Brad Shreve:
Tony, you're the one that picked out this week's episode, and I'm looking forward to discussing this one. How are you feeling? Are you have you rebounded yet?

Tony Maietta:
But we keep we kept putting it off.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I'm hoping I can remember it because I watched it a while back, and I didn't get back around to it.

Tony Maietta:
It's been the most delayed episode ever, I think, and it and even more than Chinatown. And it's not because if I was daunted by it or because I was like, oh, wow. I really have to dig in for the No. It's because of, you know, I have COVID. And not only do I have COVID, I have rebound COVID. So it's even worse. So if my voice sounds particularly sultry, well, you can thank paxlovin for that because I have that rebound. And let me tell you something, Brad.

Tony Maietta:
Rebound is real. It is a real, real thing. They say it's rare. It ain't rare. It is real, and she is a vengeful bitch. Let me tell you right now.

Brad Shreve:
See, I lucked out. It was pure hell for 2 days. And once the paxlovid kicked in, I just chilled on the couch for the for 8 days. I kept falling asleep. I was tired. Yeah. The sickness was gone. So

Tony Maietta:
No. For me, for me, Rona is a you know, she's she is? She's Alex in fatal attraction. She will not be ignored. That's the way I'm looking at this because she's like, no. This pill is not gonna I'm coming back. This pill is not gonna get rid of me. You're just not going to ignore me, Tony. You're going to feel this.

Tony Maietta:
So, yeah, it's been an it's been a pretty rough road, but I feel I feel excited to do this because I really wanted to do this film, you know, just because I love this film, but because we haven't done a black and white film. We've been doing a lot of seventies eighties, which is great, and sixties, which is great. I mean, nothing wrong with that, but thinking about us as classic Hollywood, you can't get much more classic than our film today, which is from 1935, and it's delightful. At least, to me, it's delightful. Alice Adams starring Katharine Hepburn and Fred MacMurray. How's that?

Brad Shreve:
You stopped me on this one. I had another one I had never heard of, and I thought I knew Hepburn backwards and forwards.

Tony Maietta:
That surprises me. You you never because when I've suggested it to you, you're like, yeah. And I just figured, oh, he must he must know it.

Brad Shreve:
Well, see, unlike you, I make a recommendation. You're like, think of something else. And I whatever you suggest, I'm like, yeah. Let's go for it.

Tony Maietta:
That's not true. So That's not true.

Brad Shreve:
That is true.

Tony Maietta:
Listener, that is not true.

Brad Shreve:
No. If he doesn't wanna if he doesn't wanna watch it, we change it I change it to something else.

Tony Maietta:
There's a couple coming up where I was like, should we do this? But I did them.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. You did.

Tony Maietta:
Well, no. Here's here's the thing that here's the thing that I find wonderful about this film is is that it really is the peak of Hepburn's early career. You know, we we touched a bit on Hepburn in her early career when we did Bringing up Baby, and about how in 32, you know, she hit the scene in the bill of divorcement and just was blew everybody away. She was just something new and exotic, and they called her the American Garbo, and no one had ever seen the likes of her before. And then she hit a peak in the Academy Award 1 year later with, Morning Glory and then fell into disfavor very quickly very quickly. So it's kind of interesting to me. And bringing up baby aside, I think you have to take bringing up baby out of the equation because it's different. It's a farce.

Tony Maietta:
I don't I don't put bringing up baby in this. This is her best early career performance. I am just think she's delightful and wonderful in Alice Adams.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I'm gonna break one of our rules because normally, I save my opinions till later. Mhmm. And it's not really a rule. We just generally wait for me to save my opinions.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. So you can I'm

Brad Shreve:
gonna tell you there's

Tony Maietta:
shock value.

Brad Shreve:
3 times that Katherine Pepperonis made me cry. One of them was on the same day. The the the morning I heard that she died Yeah. I cried. And then I had an appointment. I'm walking down Hollywood Boulevard. It's the same day. And I'm like, oh, I wonder all the what all that is up there.

Brad Shreve:
I got up there, and it was her star, and there were flowers and people crying, and I cried again. Mhmm. The third time I cried for Katharine Hepburn was when I watched this god awful movie.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, no.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, no.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, no.

Brad Shreve:
I'm sorry. This is the absolute most torture you have put me through.

Tony Maietta:
Are you serious?

Brad Shreve:
I can't wait to talk about

Tony Maietta:
this movie.

Brad Shreve:
No. And trust me, I was excited for it. I was excited for it.

Tony Maietta:
I love this movie.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I was in pain.

Tony Maietta:
This is gonna be interesting.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. It will be. It will be very interesting.

Tony Maietta:
This is gonna be very interesting because, well, maybe I shouldn't have you give us synopsis of it then since you're disliking. So

Brad Shreve:
The synopsis the synopsis is pretty easy. Yeah. The synopsis is it's a comedy drama romance, and it's directed by George Stevens.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
And it's adapted from the novel, the same name, by Booth Tarkington. This is the second movie that was made after this. Is it am I correct? Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
It's a

Brad Shreve:
silent film.

Tony Maietta:
Right. Yeah. In 21. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Starred,

Tony Maietta:
I'm sorry. The the novel was 21. There was a film version made in 23. So It's

Brad Shreve:
a pretty quick turnaround for a movie back then, I would think. Yeah. So it starts Katharine Hepburn, who I adore. Fred MacMurray, who I usually am not real fond of, but I've seen him in stuff I liked. Fred Stone, who played, Katharine Hepburn's father, and he was my favorite in this film.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And then Anne Shoemaker, her vile mother. And in this movie, Katherine Hepburn plays Alice Adams, the title character, and she comes from what is kind of they keep acting like they're a lower class family, but they're actually lower middle

Tony Maietta:
class family. Right.

Brad Shreve:
And, really, their house is pretty nice. She wants to climb the social ladder, and that's her ambition. So she mingles amongst the elite, and they tolerate her, but they don't respect her. And that's pretty obvious. So it's kinda painful to watch those scenes. Now in this lower middle class Adams family, the father and son are happy to work in a drug company, but the father is not working at this time because he is ill and we're never really told what it is, if it's an illness or injury of some kind. But the mother and daughter, Alice, try every possible social climbing strategy they can despite the snubs and embarrassment that Alice gets.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
And when Alice finally meets the man of her dreams, Arthur, who is played by Fred McMurray, her mother nags the father into a risky business venture and plans to impress Alice's beau with an upscale family dinner, which is the funniest moment in this movie, though it if I think it falls flat. The dinner is excruciatingly painful for the family, which is part of the humor, and will it drive Arthur away?

Tony Maietta:
You know, in your synopsis you missed and you talked about the no. You missed one key element in this.

Brad Shreve:
What was that?

Tony Maietta:
That is the the wonderful performance by Hattie McDaniel.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I figured we would get the that when we got to the dinner scene because that was she was great.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Many people many people called her the standout of this film. But, yeah, we'll we'll get to Hattie McDaniel because we definitely wanna talk about Hattie McDaniel in this. She is she she just steals the movie. Her name is Elena, and she steals the movie as they hired maid, I guess, is the best word for it, for the day of the family to it Hardly any lines. To impress. Well, that's a big thing about the movie, and that's a big thing about George Stevens. So so we before you you decimate this movie for people, I I just wanna I wanna talk about why I love it and a little bit of background about it.

Tony Maietta:
So, yes, it's based on a 1921 novel by Booth Tarkington, who also wrote, Magnificent Ambersons, if anybody knows that. He's very he was very much a his his milieu, if that's the right word, milieu, is Midwestern America. So he was a very American writer, and his stories take place in that, you know, turn of the century, early 20th century in middle America. And that's where Alice Adams takes place. And in that time, you know, it it was very socially the social classes were very restricted. It was very difficult for people to jump the social classes. And that's exactly what Alice wants to do. She dreams of being in, upper class to be high society.

Tony Maietta:
She's definitely on the wrong side of the tracks. Even though I love that house, I would take that house in a minute. That's a gorgeous it wasn't gorgeous, but

Brad Shreve:
it's solid.

Tony Maietta:
It looks like a really great, Frank Lloyd Wright, really great crafts arts and crafts house. I loved it. I loved the back stairway too. I have a thing about backstairs. And

Brad Shreve:
But you know what? The living room, it was a craftsman's house, which I love craftsman style. Mhmm. But what really was grabbing me the whole time I'm watching the living room, it is the the bunker house is identical. The door on the front to the right with the window Yeah. They come in the door. There's the closet and then the stairs. It it's almost identical to the bunker house.

Tony Maietta:
I think it's a great movie set. I really do.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. It was a very basic set. It's easy to work with.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah. So the in the novel, it's it's basically the same premise. The ending is different though, and I wanna talk about that when we get to the ending of the film. So this movie was was a silent originally. It was remade. Hepburn, was at a point in her career. She had won the Academy Award for Morning Glory.

Tony Maietta:
She was offered a part, a role in a play on Broadway called The Lake. But before she went to New York to do The Lake, she made one last film, which really deserves your cry your tears, Brad, and it's called Spitfire, in which she plays an Appalachian mountain girl. Now, if you will, can you think of anybody more Hartford, Connecticut than Katharine Hepburn? That Bryn Mawr

Brad Shreve:
Is it bad or good bad?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, my god. It's it's atrocious. It's atrocious. She you know, that Bryn Mawr accent wrapped up and around the musings of a hillbilly girl, Katharine Hepburn, she looks great, running around, the backwoods and bare feet. I mean, it's just it's ludicrous, and Katharine Hepburn actually kept a photo of herself from Spitfire on her dressing room, wall on her mirror, she said, to keep herself humble so she wouldn't forget what happened. So anyway but Spitfire hadn't been released yet. But the lake, she had a bad bad experience with the lake. It was one of the formative experiences of her career.

Tony Maietta:
It was a disaster. It's the play that the famous wit Dorothy Parker said she ran the gamut of emotions from a to b. So it was devastating for her. And this is when her career started to turn, so she figured she better get back to Hollywood quickly and make a hit movie. So she loved Alice Adams. She was very drawn to Alice Adams. And she thought that it would be perfect for her even though she couldn't really identify with the character of Alice Adams. Alice Adams, as we said, is from the wrong side of the tracks.

Tony Maietta:
Hepburn wasn't from anywhere but the wrong side of the tracks. Hepburn was, you know, a a was she wasn't a socialite, but she was definitely upper class. But she want she identified with this character because this character was an outsider. So even though she did not identify with her as a member of the lower class, She did identify with the outsider aspects of Alice. And she wanted George Q. K. Or to direct it. He was not available.

Tony Maietta:
He suggested William Wyler, and Pandro Berman, who was the head of RKO at the time, suggested George Stevens. Now Hepburn didn't know Stevens. She wanted to lean towards more towards Weiler. Berman wanted Stevens because Stevens is a California native. Stephen Stevens was American. American. And this is a name this is an American story. And now Wyler was a wonderful director.

Tony Maietta:
I love William Wyler. But he might not have had the same perspective that an actual American director would have on this most American of stories. So the story goes is that Berman said Stevens, Hepburn said Wyler, and they went back and forth and back and forth, and they were in his office. And Berman said, let's flip a coin. And Hepburn's like, alright. Flip the coin. Heads, it's Wyler. Tails, it's Stevens.

Tony Maietta:
So they flipped the coin, and it came up Wyler. And they they stood there in silence for a few seconds. And Pandora Berman looked at Hepburn, and he said, let's flip it again. And Hepburn said, okay. And she flipped it, and it came up Stevens. So it was Stevens. So there was clearly something inside her, which she was like, Stevens is right for this. And he was.

Tony Maietta:
He was this was his first big film. He had begun in silence. He directed Laurel and Hardy comedies. He was a began as, like, assistant cameraman, actually. He's one of the great directors of The Golden Era. He did Giant. He did A Place in the Sun. He did The More the Merrier, one of my favorite films.

Tony Maietta:
So, I'm excited to talk about George Stevens. But, anyway, so we had George Stevens. We had Katharine Hepburn making not a comeback, but pretty damn close to a comeback, in this film. And we had Fred MacMurray in his very first major role as a leading man.

Brad Shreve:
And quite handsome.

Tony Maietta:
He was a looker in the time. I mean, there was a reason why he became a movie star. There really was.

Brad Shreve:
I was like, wow. I I never pictured him being that that strappy.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I go back and forth about Fred MacMurray about I do like him in this. He really has very little to do.

Brad Shreve:
He's he's a cardboard cutout. He he does he he does.

Tony Maietta:
He's a cardboard cutout.

Brad Shreve:
Fault. He just it's a nothing character other than for him her to have a love interest.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Exactly. So but but I think he's well suited for her. And the thing I wanna say about Alice Adams before we go in too much into it is that this was actually Alice Adams was a personal favorite of Katharine Hepburn's out of all of her films. She really did have a very soft place in her heart for for Alice Adams, and she was nominated for best actress. And this was the year that Bette Davis won for Dangerous. Now everybody pretty much had the consensus that Dangerous was a consolation prize for Bette Davis not even getting nominated for Of Human Bondage the year before. They opened up to write ins.

Tony Maietta:
They were so upset about Bette Davis not getting nominated for Of Human Bondage. So this was pretty much a consolation prize. And even Bette Davis, and this is rare, even Bette Davis thought that Katharine Hepburn should have won for Alice Adams. Because in my opinion, it's a wonderful, touching, sweet, cusp of annoying, and obviously, you went over that cusp, but important to the character, endearing performance. And and PS, she looks absolutely beautiful in it.

Brad Shreve:
She does. And I I don't recall ever seeing her this young. I'm sure I have before, but I was really like, wow. She looks incredible. She did. She looked fabulous. And I will say there's another difference between her. You know, Alice was trying to climb up the social ladder and hepar came for money.

Brad Shreve:
The other thing is, you know, I'm sure on the inside, you know, every you'll know. Everybody I know in the entertainment industry on the inside is a bundle of insecurities, but she always carried herself very secure. I mean, she Alice was super insecure and unsure of herself.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, yes. Absolutely. Well, there's a reason why her nickname was Catherine of arrogance. I mean, that's what they called her. I mean, because she but, you know, that's a that was a cover. That was a complete cover for her massive insecurities. I mean, she admitted it so much later in her life, you know, when she was weaving the myth of Katherine Hepburn about how she was terrified. So she put on this front perhaps too well and really alienated people, which kind of led to her entire, you know, downfall in the mid to late thirties.

Tony Maietta:
And that's why this film is really her peak, because she there was still just enough goodwill from this film. This film was a hit, by the way. It didn't make money. So this was really her last solo hit at RKO, and I think that, for me personally, I love it. I love the film.

Brad Shreve:
You know, I'm thinking about stand up comedians. I'm sure if I thought hard enough, I could come up with one, but every stand up comedian that is coming to mind that I know is massive amounts of insecurity, which most of us are to some degree. But I they seem to be more what is it about the entertainment industry? Anyway, that's a whole different subject to get

Tony Maietta:
to that someday. How long how long how long do we have for this podcast? I mean, come on.

Brad Shreve:
That we'll need to find a psychology podcast, and we you can talk about that one.

Tony Maietta:
Well, the the amazing thing about Heparin is and and Pandora Berman said this. You know, when she came to Hollywood, she acted like she was already a star. You know, she she was not a she was a she made a splash in Broadway, and that's when she got the attention of people in Hollywood. But she acted like she was a huge star, and she wasn't. She got to Hollywood. She demanded, first of all, no no long term contract, which is unheard of. And she demanded $1500 a week in 1932. Now to put this into perspective, in 1932, James Cagney, who was a star, who had done the public enemy and was huge, was only making 12.50.

Tony Maietta:
Wow. So you have this woman who's coming and saying you're gonna I will do this film for you, a bill of divorcement. I'll do it, but I'm not gonna sign a contract, and it's gonna be $1500 a week for this amount of weeks, and then it's gonna go up, and then it's gonna go up. And the amazing thing is that confidence carried her through until she basically fulfilled her death. It was a self fulfilling prophecy that she become a star.

Brad Shreve:
And, you know, you probably know this more than I do. There's a reason why there are some really, really outstanding waiters. There's a reason why there are some really, really outstanding actors that are bussing tables, and we have people on the big screen that ain't doing it very well.

Tony Maietta:
There's a reason they're really, really amazing waiters. I love that. We're gonna keep that in because that's very funny. That's a very funny but true slam. Well,

Brad Shreve:
they've been amazing waiters because they do it so much.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly. Because they are. They are. So a little bit about this movie before Brad tears it to shreds. Some of the things I love about it. Yes. You had mentioned earlier that there are that there's some very slow silent. Compare this movie with Bringing a Baby.

Tony Maietta:
Now we're it's not really fair because we're comparing 2 different styles, comparing farce and romantic comedy. Mhmm. This movie bringing a baby is breakneck. It never stops. This movie has long stretches of silence, but they're in funny scenes. And it comes directly from George Stevens. As I said, George Stevens came from silent film. He was not afraid to have long sequences without dialogue.

Tony Maietta:
And to me, that's what makes that's what makes this movie so interesting, is particularly the scene there are 2 scenes. The the scene at the dance. Alice goes to a dance and she's kind of in this this old dress that is totally out of style in last year, and, and the bitches who were there mention it as she's walking by. By the way, Katharine Hepburn is so much more beautiful than any one of those bitches of that dance. I'm stunned

Brad Shreve:
I agree.

Tony Maietta:
That they have the nerve to give her shade. I think she's oh, and do you know did you happen to know notice the woman who played Mildred? The girl who's giving the party's name is Mildred. Did you happen to notice who her mother was by any chance? Did that strike you? No. Her mother was none other than Hedda Hopper. So when you're watching Alice Adams

Brad Shreve:
Oh, I did know.

Tony Maietta:
Did she look familiar to you?

Brad Shreve:
No. I knew Hedda Hopper was in the movie, but I never connected. The problem is that this movie was so old. Like, Hepburn, I don't know if I would've I I would've noticed her.

Tony Maietta:
But Well yeah. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
People were so much younger in this film than when I was used to. I don't know if I would've recognized McMurray if I just saw a picture of him.

Tony Maietta:
Hedda Hopper played missus Palmer, And this was pretty much Hedda Hopper's final acting role in film. After this, this was the same year, 1955 was the same year she started doing the she started working as a stringer for Gossip, and then she became Hedda Hopper. And then she was in films as Hedda Hopper. But this is really her last acting role, and she kinda she very much has that same films as Hedda Hopper. But this is really her last acting role and she kinda she very much has that same kind of that kind of haughty superciliousness in this film. It's perfect for her. So the the scene at the dance, when when Alice is invited to this dance and she has to bring her brother because she doesn't have a date, She's trying very she's trying very hard to be to seem like the social butterfly, to seem like the things that she wants to be. She's really trying to do this self manifestation that she's a she's a society girl.

Tony Maietta:
And the silences are so important here because Alice's face, as she's ignored by boys, as she is ignored by girls or she hears comments, she still tries to maintain that optimistic you know, the smile which insult. And then when Fred MacMurray comes over to her and asks her to dance, and Fred MacMurray is the catch at the dance, so the catch of the catch. He's supposedly Mildred's fiance, but he's showing an awful lot of attention to Alice Adams.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. That was But her face,

Tony Maietta:
how she lights up when he shows her that attention. You just wanna tell her to be quiet. Stop talking. Stop talking. That's the thing about Alice Adams. You wanna say to Katharine Hepburn, stop talking. You're ruining it. But that's the character.

Tony Maietta:
You know what I mean? That's who she is. She's so insecure and she just goes off on these flights of fancy which just create her downfall, basically. And she's sensified McMurray to go find her brother who's playing craps in the back, with the servants. And, of course, she's humiliated. And she goes home, and there's a very interesting scene. And I wanna get your opinion on this scene. So she comes home, and she's still trying to play light. And trying to play light was a wonderful evening.

Tony Maietta:
And she goes home to she says goodnight to her parents, and she goes in her bedroom, and she goes up to the window where it's been raining, and she's the window is slightly open, and she breaks out in tears. And it's a beautiful scene. And as she's crying, the rain is hitting the window and kind of enhancing her tears, which is a beautiful scene, and it wasn't originally written that way. It was originally written that she throws herself on the bed in tears. And George Stevens said, why don't we have you go to the window while the rain while the water is falling? It will really it will be really effective. As I said, it will enhance your tears and make the scene even more moving. And Hepburn loved this idea. She's like, let's do it.

Tony Maietta:
Let's do it. But what happened was they went to film it, and it's the actor's nightmare. She went up to cry, and she couldn't cry. So rather than say, I'm sorry I'm having trouble, she became Katharine Hepburn, the star, and said, George, it's a stupid scene. It's it won't work. It won't work. I can't do it like this. I can't do it.

Tony Maietta:
We're gonna do it the way so they had a battle. And according to Hepburn, you know, some explicatives were thrown and she was so shaken by the fact that George Stevens really lit into her that that unlocked her tears and she was able to cry. She also blamed it on the cold water from the rain. She didn't say she had she had a dry moment. She said that she, it was the cold water from the rain. I I couldn't cry because of the cold water was hitting me in the face. That unlocked her tears, and she was able to do it. And it's a it's a beautiful scene, and I think it points out what a great director George Steven was even at this point in his career.

Tony Maietta:
You know, a great director knows how to work with an actor to let that happen, whether it be put your arms around her, like Sydney Pollack did with Barbra Streisand when she couldn't cry, and that unlocked the tears. In this instance, it was yelling back at Katharine Hepburn unlocking her tears. And by the way, PS, and earning Katharine Hepburn's respect for the rest of her life because he stood up to her. What do you think of that scene?

Brad Shreve:
What I think of the scene think of the, the dance scene or the the bedroom scene? The crying scene?

Tony Maietta:
Either one. Both.

Brad Shreve:
Let's start with the crying scene. Visually visually throughout this movie, it was it looked great. Now I will tell you my whole thought process, because now that you're talking about this, I'm like, oh, I can see it. I think she should have been on bed because I'm sitting there looking at this and seeing how sad her father is because he can hear her cry. And all I'm thinking is, how can he hear her cry when she has the window open and it's pouring rain? So I didn't get the whole artistic part. I'm getting the, this doesn't make sense.

Tony Maietta:
How does he hear that? How does he hear that?

Brad Shreve:
You know, I'm gonna try and be kind here because I really I I didn't watch this with any anticipation of not liking it. I really was because I love the look of it. The story is very cute, and I love Hepburn. And I was surprised that I found McMurray handsome, but it it just really rubbed me wrong. So let's go back to the dance. Mhmm. That took from the time we met her and her father and her horribly nagging mother, to the end of that dance scene was the first 30 minutes. Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
And there was a lot of silence. And it went on too long because it wasn't just the silence. It was her little nervous smiles and her nervous tittters and her being uncomfortable, where to sit and and where to how to stand and her brother leaving her when she wanted him to dance. And and then That

Tony Maietta:
didn't make you feel for her and her her anxiety that she she was having?

Brad Shreve:
Not when it went on so long. I'm like, this is I get the point. This is real now she's just on my nerves. And, you know, and she brought that awkward boy over to dance with her, and she

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Really mean to him. I mean, he just took it.

Tony Maietta:
See, I thought she no. See, I thought she was very gracious to him.

Brad Shreve:
At first.

Tony Maietta:
I thought she was so glad that somebody asked her to dance.

Brad Shreve:
She was, but then then she's like, no. Let's just sit here.

Tony Maietta:
And it and then and

Brad Shreve:
then it got kinda kinda mean. She didn't mean to, but it it was kinda mean. But it just was I'm just like, you know what? I was just really I was uncomfortable. I said, maybe maybe she did well. It would hurt her the people looking at her and and her trying to smile when you could tell she just want to crawl under the couch and and she's trying to fit in when she clearly did not. It was it was excruciating to watch and went on way too long. That's it was painful.

Tony Maietta:
So that didn't by the way, that

Brad Shreve:
wasn't cute. It was painful.

Tony Maietta:
So that that actor who you're talking about, his name is is Grady Sutton. He played Frank Dowell. And he did a lot of parts like that. These kind of, like, nebbish, wimpy, you know, obviously, he's being he's he's whipped by his the females in his life. So but that didn't I see that didn't inspire empathy in you. You didn't think, oh, this poor guy. Because it went on so long, that didn't make you feel for her even more?

Brad Shreve:
No. I wonder get the hell out of there.

Tony Maietta:
Okay. Okay.

Brad Shreve:
It just became it wasn't fun to watch. I kept you know, I if it's supposed to

Tony Maietta:
It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking.

Brad Shreve:
Be a romance and a drama and a comedy. It really I really saw more of a drama. There was comedy. I saw very little romance. We'll get to that later. But, no. It was it was uncomfortable. I didn't find it cute or interesting.

Brad Shreve:
I just found it irritating. And I'm like, I'll get to more later why I found it irritating, but Hep Hepburn just really disappointed me in this film.

Tony Maietta:
Wow. Wow. See, I find her to me, you know, she won the Oscar for morning glory, a couple years before this. And the character in Morning Glory, to me, is the way you're describing Alice Adams. I find her incredibly annoying in Morning Glory. She talk it's they're very similar characters, by the way, but what but Eva Lovelace, to me, in Morning Glory is is so annoying and goes on these flights which are just ridiculous flights of fancy. To me, Alice Adams are so much more pathos in this performance. This is a girl who loves her fam.

Tony Maietta:
Despite the fact that she's in this position where she's trying to reach up, she's not dismissing her family. She loves her family. She loves her father. She loves her mother. She loves her brother. She's just she just wants a better life, but she doesn't do it at the expense of them. You know? She doesn't sacrifice her relationship with her parents. She still loves her parents.

Tony Maietta:
And at the end, if Fred MacMurray wants to go his own way because they're not good enough for him, that's fine with her. She's with her family, the way she comes to her father's defense, her brother's defense. So to me, that makes me love her. It gives to me, it makes me say, yes, you poor thing. It gives me so I have such sympathy for what this character is going through, her anxieties about what she wants in life and how she just can't seem to get it, but not at the expense of her family, and I admire that.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I'll tell you the the whole dance scene. First of all, that is an amazing house. This is a small town.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
That's quite amazing mansion in a small town. But and quite the big part I'm like I was like, wow. That town little town certainly has a lot of society people mingling around. Maybe they came from outside the area. But, anyway, I think the problem was it was very real. And the prom movies shouldn't be real. It's just like, you know, if movies were like real life, half the movie would be idle chitchat about bullshit. You know? And that's where I think it failed.

Brad Shreve:
I got the point. Why continue to put us through this agony?

Tony Maietta:
I think so. You'll really get the point. So you'll really feel for Well Well, can you imagine Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
We definitely got it.

Tony Maietta:
Okay. We didn't do a spoiler alert. So spoiler alert there. We just did it. Can you imagine had the movie ended the way the book ends? Okay. So

Brad Shreve:
I agree with her that it should've ended that way.

Tony Maietta:
Well, so did and so did George Stevens. The original ending of the book so so, listeners, so we've gone through. She does have a romance with Arthur with Fred MacMurray's character. He comes to dinner. We'll talk about the dinner scene because it really is the linchpin of the whole movie. The dinner is a disaster of epic proportions. And in the book, after the dinner, she says, you know, you're you're released. You don't I understand.

Tony Maietta:
You may go. And there's just a heartbreak, but she's still smiling. There's such heartbreak in her voice and she thinks he leaves in the movie. And then there's this whole scene with, her father and mister Lam, his employer, and this whole misunderstanding which is taken care of, which

Brad Shreve:
Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Yeah. She doesn't say you may go. She pushes his ass out

Tony Maietta:
the door. You know what I'm saying.

Brad Shreve:
She She makes it so he has no choice.

Tony Maietta:
She gets very magnanimous about because she's humiliated because she's humiliated. But she does, you know, she does release him from his obligation. Your obligations are over after tonight. She says something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing. And she thinks he leaves, and then this whole situation happens with her father and her his former employer, and she fixes it. And then she goes back on the porch again, and she thinks he's gone, but he's not. Because he said to her earlier in the movie, the only one who could drive me because she said she warned him earlier about the girls and people saying things about her in town, and he said to her, the only person who could drive me away is you.

Tony Maietta:
And, she turns around to find him still there, and he says to her again, you know, the only person who could drive me away is you. So in the end of the film, they're together. In the book, he's not on the porch. He's gone. And she gets a job. She goes back to business school. She goes to business school, and she gets a job, and she ports her family, and she runs into him later. It's a very way we were ending in the book.

Tony Maietta:
She runs into him years late not years later, months later, and there's it's obvious that they're never going to reconcile. It's over. That was the original ending in the script, but Pando Bermen, the head of RKO, said no. We need a happy ending. If you want a box office hit, we need a happy ending. And Hepburn didn't like this and Stevens didn't like it, but they shot it anyway because he was Pandora Berman. He was the chief he was the head of production. They had to do that.

Tony Maietta:
And Hepburn said that she still wasn't crazy about the ending, but she understood it. And she really believes the reason the movie was a hit was because of the happier ending.

Brad Shreve:
I think you missed something though. To me, that movie with the alternate ending, the the original ending today would have been the happy ending.

Tony Maietta:
I was gonna say that. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Because she no longer depended on everyone else. She was she didn't have to climb up the social ladder to be who she wanted to be. She went to search she went to business school to strike out on her. She was gonna make it on her own. She didn't need him. She didn't need other girls to love her. She was being who she was gonna be.

Tony Maietta:
Right. Seth is Seth is a true 2024 modern man. Yes, Brad. But in 1935

Brad Shreve:
why it didn't work back then. I totally get that. But I think it would have been better.

Tony Maietta:
That was totally I, you know, when I I actually put made made a note of that too, the same thing you just said. If that if this movie were made today, it would have the less the that ending where she goes back to business school and actually works it, because we would have to have it. That's the ending we would have to have today. This romantic ending at the end of your life, no. That's just stupid. But in 1935, you know, depression, this is what audiences audiences wanted, and, clearly, they were they were correct. Pendo Birman was correct. George Cukor also advised her.

Tony Maietta:
Birman is correct. You need a happy ending for this if you want a hit, and that's what happened.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, from business standpoint, I think it was the right decision. I I can't argue that. No. I agree, especially given that time error.

Tony Maietta:
So let's talk about Hattie McDaniel.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, you and I get excited when we get messages and emails and texts from listeners that tell us how much they enjoy the show.

Tony Maietta:
We do.

Brad Shreve:
But, you know, I think we should push it a little bit and ask them to go a little bit further.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, a challenge.

Brad Shreve:
If you enjoy this show, let others know. 5 stars are great. Whatever you wanna give, except one star. If if you have one star, say, you know, that show is not for me and move on. We accept that.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. You don't need to don't give us 1 star because just say, no. Not for me. Just skip it. Or tell your friends. That's the best way too. Right? Tell your friends, hey. I have this great fun podcast with these 2 kooky guys who talk about movies and TV.

Tony Maietta:
We run the gamut. We have everything.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. We're all over the place.

Tony Maietta:
We're all over the place is a better way to put it.

Brad Shreve:
But in a good way. So do it right now before you forget.

Tony Maietta:
So let's talk about Hattie McDaniel. So as I said before, the dinner scene, which is kind of the linchpin of the entire film, is a it's the set piece of the entire movie. I find it incredibly funny, incredibly heartbreaking. And one of the reasons it's so funny is Hattie McDaniel. And Hattie McDaniel plays Melina, who's a, maid that missus Adams has hired just to just for the day, just for this dinner, so so that, Fred MacMurray's character will think that their family is of a higher society than they are. It's very problematic today to watch, even though I don't think there's anything I don't think there's anything necessarily objectionable about Hattie McDaniel playing this part, but I can see where people have issues with it, you know, because she's just Oh, yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. I I don't think yeah. I don't think there was nothing overt, certainly. I think it was just that, to me, it was a sign of the time.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Which that's why it's uncomfortable today to watch. But, yeah, I don't I don't think she was put in the space to be a

Tony Maietta:
But the humor in that scene comes from Hattie McDaniel. She's so funny Yes. In that. She play you know, the character of Melina, first of all, it's incredibly hot. It's the hottest day of the year, and they're having sweet breads, which are organs, if anybody thinks sweet breads or something else. They're an animal's organs. They're having brussels sprouts. They're having things which are so heavy because you didn't plan it well.

Tony Maietta:
And Hannah McDaniel goes, don't you think you should be serving something else? I mean, Hannah McDaniel is basically, the character she plays in Gone with the Wind, but she's not. You know what I mean? It's the same kind of attitudes, the same kind of eye even more so, even eye rolling. And Hattie McDaniel serving this this meal to this family as the ice cream is now soup and the brussels sprouts keep getting away from her and rolling it on the table. And her hat that she has, that floppy hat, the maid's hat, it's so hot it keeps wilting and she keeps pushing it back in her face. I think it's a brilliant comic scene. It's a brilliant comic scene.

Brad Shreve:
I'll tell you who she reminded me of. Benson when he was on soap.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, sure. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Before he got his own series.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely.

Brad Shreve:
He was a smart one. He knew what was going on. The rest of them were nuts, and she's going through the note motions and rolling her eyes and sharing her opinion when at times. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Absolutely. No. I get I mean, that's a that's a great character, and and nobody did it better than Halle McDaniel. Hello. She won an Oscar for it for playing mammy in in Gone With the Wind. So, I mean, nobody played this type of role better than Hattie McDaniel. She's brilliant. She had you know, she was in she got a big break.

Tony Maietta:
She was a singer, and she often supported herself. This is what's really sad is she often when she was doing these roles, she would support herself as a maid in real life before she really hit. In, like, 1933, she was in I'm No Angel with Mae West, and that was her first really big break. And then, of course, this movie in 35 and then God with the Wind, and then, hopefully, she never had to work as a maid in real life again. I mean, that was Hollywood at the time, but I think she's wonderful in this film, and she's another one of the one who delivers, as we said, the silences, her looks, the way she looks at The Addams Family. Funny. The Addams Family. The way she looks at this family, like, are you crazy for eating this food on this hot day? It's a scene stealing performance.

Tony Maietta:
She gives that scene its humor, and Hepburn gives it its its drama, its pathos. It's it's it's it's a heartbreaking scene because the dinner is falling apart, and you know this means everything to Alice. Everything.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And Hattie speaks volumes through her facial expressions. She Oh,

Tony Maietta:
yes. She's wonderful. She really yeah.

Brad Shreve:
It was great. It was great.

Tony Maietta:
It's again, it's Stevens relying on his silent film techniques to tell a story. He didn't need words. They had faces then. And these faces in this and if you watch Hepburn in this scene, when she's when things are getting more and more out of control and she's getting more and more desperate and her anxiety is building, the woman does not blink. In every single I'm not you're not gonna go back and watch it again, obviously. But, listener, if you haven't watched it, watch Katharine Hepburn in this scene and watch her anxiety level rise. She's the only one who's not sweating. I don't know how everybody's sweating.

Tony Maietta:
Fred MacMurray's sweating. Everybody in this house is sweating except Katharine Hepburn, but she does not blink. It's just one rapid, bit of dialogue after the other after the other, and she just digs herself in deeper and deeper and deeper. And this is when you wanna say, please, please stop talking. Please. But she can't help herself. She's just that's who she is. And in this film, at least, it's okay because he's there in the end, but not in the book, not in the original script.

Brad Shreve:
I thought this was a funny scene, but it also made me very, very uncomfortable, and I'll get into the I'll get into that. But before we get into my tearing this across the cold, and I won't entirely. Mhmm.

Tony Maietta:
Should I tell how the movie did? Yes. Please do.

Brad Shreve:
I'll I'll give I'll give the stats on this movie.

Tony Maietta:
Give the stats of the movie.

Brad Shreve:
I didn't realize how prolific George Stevens was. The man directed 60 films.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
And that included the greatest story ever told, Giant, More the Merrier, Ganga Din.

Tony Maietta:
Place in the Sun, which I would love to talk about sometime.

Brad Shreve:
This movie was nominated for an Oscar for best picture and best actress. And as you said, she did lose out to Bette Davis, and I was equally surprised to learn that Bette said that she should have won. That's not the Bette I Davis I ever knew.

Tony Maietta:
Right. Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
The film that won was Mewni on the Bounty, which was a good film, I don't remember it well enough, so I can't say if it deserved or not because I don't remember it. But I it was a good film. The budget of this film was $342,000, which sounds like a lot to me back then. It grossed, 770,000 worldwide, which adjusted for in inflation is $17,000,000 today. Mhmm. So not bad. Yeah. Other top films that year were, as I said, mute me on the bounty.

Brad Shreve:
There was China Seas, which I'm not really familiar with.

Tony Maietta:
Clark Gable, Jean Harlow, Hattie McDaniel. She's in it, ironically.

Brad Shreve:
Top Hat, which was nominated. David Copperfield, which was nominated, and Les Mis, which was nominated as well. Obviously, the rest of the world does not agree with me. They agree with Tony because Rotten Tomatoes, the critics score is 89%, and the audience score is 71%. So, clearly, I am missing something because this movie made me so, so uncomfortable. And the reason is the the scenes that were supposed to be uncomfortable were so

Tony Maietta:
So uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
First of all, my my complaint the reason why I said, I guess, this is supposed to be a romance. You you brought this up when it came to, A Star is Born, not the Judy Garland version, the the one before that.

Tony Maietta:
The Janet Gaynor, Frederick March version. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
You said until Judy Garland came up, there was really no you never really saw why, the the male lead fell for her. What did he see in

Tony Maietta:
Her talent. Her talent.

Brad Shreve:
Her talent.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
This, I was like, what does he see in her as a as there's a love interest? Because at the party, she wasn't, like, giant, tittering in a good way. She was, like, skin crawling. Like like, I would never she

Tony Maietta:
was pretty You don't think he sees you don't think he sees the the real the inner Alice Adams? You don't think he sees this unique creature, this this you know, Hepburn didn't. You don't think he sees Hepburn in Alice Adams?

Brad Shreve:
Would he? I didn't. Really? I no. I I the whole movie, the whole way through right up to the very end, I'm like, why does he care about this woman? There's no there's no chemistry between these 2. See, I think almost like I almost felt like it was a pretty woman kinda thing in the sense that he wanted to save her, but there wasn't the connection.

Tony Maietta:
I think it's the age old thing about seeing the diamond in the rough. You know, being this guy who's lived his entire life around these society women and he's so bored by them and he's so over them. And then he sees this woman who's so different and so unique and he's intrigued. Plus, she's also I'm sorry. She's so beautiful in this film. She's stunningly beautiful in this film.

Brad Shreve:
She is beautiful, but you knit the you hit the nail on the head for me. I think it is supposed to be he sees the diamond in the rough, but all I saw was rough. I never saw the diamond. No. I never did. First of all, let's talk about the family.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, god. Father.

Brad Shreve:
He was a kind man. I I thought it was funny. The only unkind moment he had was when, Hattie McDaniel's off stage, you heard her they said she fell down the stairs.

Tony Maietta:
She fell down the cellar stairs.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. How was she? What he he asked, like

Tony Maietta:
What was it?

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. It was I don't know. He it was some self serving question.

Tony Maietta:
Fred Stone. Yes. Yeah. He's a

Brad Shreve:
very funny guy. Other than that, he was a very kindly man. I also liked his his boss who was ready to fire him. But in the end, he was Did

Tony Maietta:
you recognize that was uncle Henry? That was Charlie Grapevine? Yes. I did.

Brad Shreve:
Recognize that. I liked that, you know, he had a warm heart in the end. And those were the only 2 likable characters I I found. Fred MacMurray, I didn't dislike. They just didn't give him enough to do to like or dislike him. This the the the mother was the horrible, horrible neck, horrible woman. The father is in bed most of this film for whatever reason. We don't know what he has.

Brad Shreve:
And she is nagging him and nagging him, talking about how poor they are. As I as Tony and I said, this is a nice house during the depression, but she is on his ass constantly about he needs to do better, that they're living too poor.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And she never has a nice thing to say. So she is a horrible person.

Tony Maietta:
Missus Adams really is kind of the villain of this of this piece. And you can see why Alice is the way she is because she got most of it from her mother.

Brad Shreve:
Well, yeah.

Tony Maietta:
You know? But I think Alice has a saving grace. I think Alice has she's not as bad as her mother, clearly. I think that Hepburn imbues her with such love and such you I don't know. You have to me, you have such empathy for this character. You feel for I feel for this girl who just wants what everybody else has. All these girl she's, you know, she's the outsider. That's why Hepburn identified with this. She she just wants to have what everybody else has, and she doesn't understand why she can't because look at her.

Tony Maietta:
I'm beautiful. I'm smart. I have an interesting voice. I can carry a conversation. God knows. Fred MacMurray is pretty uninteresting, but I think that's more line more along the lines of Fred MacMurray. Well, yes. I mean

Brad Shreve:
He's I've I've never been a huge fan of his.

Tony Maietta:
So You wanna hear something really crazy about Fred MacMurray? I have a couple because I have one very interesting funny, I think, Fred Mac Murray story I wanna tell. But do you know Fred Mac Murray in 1943 and 1944 was the highest paid actor in Hollywood? Now think about that for a minute. No. In 43 and 44, he was the highest paid actor in Hollywood. It could have something to do with the fact that he didn't serve during World War 2. So while Jimmy Stewart and Clark Gable and his compatriots were all fighting, he didn't serve. Now I'm not saying anything about his whatever his patriotism. That's what I'm saying.

Tony Maietta:
I'm just saying he was in Hollywood working, so it could be why he was the highest paid actor in 43 and 44.

Brad Shreve:
John Wayne didn't work either, did he? I mean, he didn't serve, did he?

Tony Maietta:
He didn't he didn't serve either, but John Wayne wasn't mythic John Wayne. And, you know, stage coach was 39. So, you know, McMurray, for a guy who always another interesting thing about is for a guy who always seemed to play nice guys, his best performances when he was when he was being were his darker characters was, you know, Walter Neff in Double Indemnity, you know, probably most famous. His most famous role certainly or or Kiefer in The Kane Mutiny. So this guy had definitely had dark sides to him that really weren't plumbed. And then, of course, he did all those Disney movies, and, you know, he became my 3 sons. And I do wanna tell a funny story about about Fred MacMurray, that Barry Livingston told me. You know, I, and I interviewed Barry Livingston when I was doing, when I was hosting The Lucy Show DVDs.

Tony Maietta:
We would I would interview people who were involved in the series, and Barry Livingston played Theodore j Mooney's son on a couple episodes of The Lucy Show in the 2nd season. So he was one of Theodore j Mooney's 3 sons, which is kind of ironic. So anyway, so I interview people, you know, Lucy Arnaz, Carol Cook, and one of the people I interviewed was Barry Livingston, and he told me this story about Fred MacMurray off camera. So it wasn't it's not in the interview, unfortunately, but I'm gonna tell it to you now for the first time or maybe the second time. So anyway, Fred MacMurray, by the time they were gonna do My 3 Sons, Fred Mac Murray did not wanna do it. He did not wanna do a sitcom. He was doing all these Disney movies. He was doing fine.

Tony Maietta:
He had enough money. He didn't care, but they really wanted him to do it. They just for some reason, they had to have him do it. So he finally agreed to do it, but his stipulation was that all of his scenes had to be filmed first. So any scene that involved Fred MacMurray's character, Steve Douglas, that took place in the upstairs hallway was filmed 1 after the other after the other. The after he would just change his sweater. And then any scene that took place in the bedroom had to be filmed 1 after the other after can you imagine what this does to a production? So all of your scripts for the year, all of your guest stars have to be set before you even begin filming. So they would film all of the scene, and Barry Livingston told me this.

Tony Maietta:
So they would film all of the scenes at the top of the season, and then after about 6 weeks, Fred MacMurray would be done, and he'd be gone. He'd be off filming another Disney movie. They couldn't get a hold of him. So that left the rest of his costars to for the rest of the season to film their portion of their scenes with him to a coat rack.

Brad Shreve:
Which has about just as much personality.

Tony Maietta:
I was gonna say, and if you know Fred MacMurray, it ain't that much different. I just love that. How is that for a generous actor? Generate you know what? You gotta do your scenes now. Oh, but just pretend the coat racks in Fred MacMurray.

Brad Shreve:
Okay. That that didn't even require acting.

Tony Maietta:
No. It doesn't. But, anyway, yeah, I don't think Fred MacMurray, as far as gifted actors go, is is that is that challenging? I can see that. I can see that. Well, the movie did good, but you didn't like it.

Brad Shreve:
So No. I didn't like it. The other thing was this is where Kate really let me down. I'd as I said, I was really uncomfortable in the dance scene. I was really uncomfortable through the whole thing. Like, when she's on the port when she's trying to get him to to leave, Maurice and I didn't talk through the whole thing other than him grumbled a couple of times. I just tried to ignore him because I don't wanna get my opinion, you know, changed even though we disagree on movies all the time. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
But she's looking at him, and she has that weird smile, and she kept cocking her head. And like you said, she never blinked. And I looked at Maurice and I said, she acts like an old creepy witch in a horror film. And he looks at me and goes, exactly.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, god. Wow. Well, there's there's a ringing endorsement.

Brad Shreve:
We have a disagreed before, but, man, this one we really disagree.

Tony Maietta:
Well, good. I'm glad. We said we needed more disagreements. We needed to find things, and I don't think it's a matter of disagreeing. I think it's just a support in a matter of finding things that appeal to you in a movie that don't appeal to me and vice versa. It's a difference of opinion. I find her I find her so empathetic, as I said. She just tears my heart out in this.

Tony Maietta:
And I and it's because of the because Stevens crafted these scenes, which were so uncomfortable. You know, as I said, they became very good friends after this. And after the Philadelphia story was a very crucial time in her career, because the Philadelphia story was a hit. So she was on her way back, but the next one was really the important one, because that would solidify her her comeback. And that was woman of the year. And when she decided when she knew that she wanted to do woman of the year and and she knew how important it was to her, she didn't turn to George Cukor, her great friend. She turned to George Stevens because she trusted him that much. So I I kinda love that about George Stevens.

Tony Maietta:
And by the way, there's a scene in woman of the year at the end, which is also very controversial, which is mostly in Silence 2. So you can see this is the George Stevens hand. So I love the fact that this movie set George Stevens on his way, and he became one of the great directors of the era. And I'm real I really love Hepburn in this. So, listener, you're gonna be cranky ass like Brad and say she looks like a witch, or you can just have great sympathy and love for this poor girl who's just trying to better her life named Alice Adams.

Brad Shreve:
And listen. I really tried. I really tried.

Tony Maietta:
Well, I just snorted. Well, I guess then that's Alice Adams for us for today. Unless there's something else you wanna

Brad Shreve:
try to do. Just gonna no. I'm just gonna say I am gonna leave my little slip up where I said, wait. Actors make brilliant waiters, even though It's a great line. How many times Tony will make me rerecord some of his slip ups. Oh, please.

Tony Maietta:
Never. This is all live conversation. Alright, Brad. Well, you know, I I I hate to say it. Well, maybe not today, but let's not say goodbye. Let's just say.

Brad Shreve:
No. Let's definitely say goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Goodbye. That's all folks.