A Cruel Inheritance: "The Heiress" (1949)

Tony Maietta:
Hello. I'm film historian, Tony Maietta.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm Brad Shreve, who's just a guy who likes movies.

Tony Maietta:
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age. We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

Brad Shreve:
And, of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

Tony Maietta:
As does your self delusion. Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Brad Shreve:
Tony, we took a week off, so it's good to see you again. How are things going?

Tony Maietta:
Don't be kind to me, Brad. It doesn't become you.

Brad Shreve:
Excuse me?

Tony Maietta:
You have found a tongue at last only to say such terrible things to me.

Brad Shreve:
How can you be so cruel, Tony?

Tony Maietta:
Yes. I can be very cruel. I have been taught by masters. I think I'm not my voice is not quite as deep as Olivia De Havilland's in that. Yes, I can be very cruel. I have been taught by masters. Oh, I got chills when I said that.

Brad Shreve:
There are so many quotes from this film. I was really amazed when I did a search for quotes from this film, and there weren't that many listed. I'm like, good god. I I I need to find some time to write some down.

Tony Maietta:
Well, obviously, I just was quoting. I was giving all the I was giving all the big quotes from our movie of today, The Heiress from 1949. It's Paramount 1949 starring Olivia de Havilland, Ralph Richardson, and Montgomery Clift, and Merriam Hopkins. I wanna get Merriam Hopkins in there because I love her.

Brad Shreve:
Please do.

Tony Maietta:
So this is a I'm kinda surprised listener. This was Brad's idea, which I was kind of stunned because they're usually my ideas when these things. And this was Brad's idea. And, Brad, you'd never seen it. Correct?

Brad Shreve:
No. I'd never seen it. First of all, I wanna make a clarification. I don't just watch Marvel films and and Star Wars or whatever. I love old films. I love new films. I just try to pull you forward a little bit. That's why I push them a little bit.

Brad Shreve:
But no. We I don't remember what episode it was, but I was researching for an episode that we did. I don't know the movie. Mhmm. And I stumbled on this somehow, and I started reading about the heiress. And I'm like, I have never heard of this film.

Tony Maietta:
Wow.

Brad Shreve:
At least I don't remember it. So I thought, okay. I read it again. I'm like, we'll have to do this because it sounds good, and I've never seen it. I'm sure Tony has. No doubt there. And that's when I said, hey. Let's do the heiress.

Tony Maietta:
And I was like, okay. Yeah. Well, actually, I have a I have a soft spot in my heart for the heiress. And, because and this is something that you don't know, Brad. Because in my previous lifetime, I played Morris Townsend in a wonderful production of the heiress. And, yeah. And so, you know, because the heiress is the heiress, the film we're talking about, is based on a play, which is suggested by, not based on the novel Washington Square by Henry James. So the heiress is really besides the fact that I love this film and I love god knows I love the performances, especially miss de Havilland.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. I played Morris, so I kind of have a soft spot for Morris. I'm I think Morris is an okay guy. I don't care what anybody says. Not a gold not not not a fortune hunter at all or gold digger.

Brad Shreve:
Unless I wanna tell you, Tony's nervous because when before we hit hit the record button, he said, I love this movie. I'm really afraid of what you're gonna say about it.

Tony Maietta:
I don't want an Alice Adams episode again where I'm like, oh, trying to dodge these insults about Alice Adams. But no. Hey. That's what this is about. This is a conversation, an unscripted conversation about a film. So it, you know, if you like it, if you don't like it, I'm just saying I will take it personally with this film. But go ahead, Brad. What did you what what do you wanna say?

Brad Shreve:
Well, first, I wanna do a spoiler alert. We said we don't do spoilers, but this movie, it it it needs a spoiler alert.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
It has so many twists and turns in it. And it's all psychological. It's all character. The one thing you can say about this movie is nobody is 2 dimensional in any way, shape, or form. The The other thing I wanna before we get in the movie, I wanna make a quick apology to our Canadian friends because 2 weeks ago, I told you all that you need to step it up because the UK is ahead of you. 

Tony Maietta:
Did they?

Brad Shreve:
You know why I thought that? Because towns in the UK tend to stand out. They Mhmm. Whereas towns in Canada look more like what we have in the United States. So when I really looked at it, no. We have a whole lot more Canadians than we have people in the UK. We love you all. But We love you all.

Brad Shreve:
I love Canadians. You're doing great. Of course, we'd always love you to tell your friends that we have more. And same thing to you UK folks. Okay.

Tony Maietta:
I love Canada. I love the UK. I think they're fabulous. So thanks for thanks for sticking with us through these episodes. I forgot to mention probably one of the most important things about the heiress is that it is directed by probably my favorite director of classic Hollywood, mister none other than mister William Wyler, who directed such incredible films as the best years of our lives, the little foxes, Jezebel, funny girl, and mister Wyler has the distinction of leading more actors and actresses to Oscars than any other director. 12. He led 12 actors actresses to Oscars.

Brad Shreve:
One of them, the lovely miss Olivia de Havilland.

Tony Maietta:
Absolutely. And he had I'm sorry. I take that back. It wasn't 12. It was 14. 14 Even better. Yeah. I was doing the 12 nominations.

Tony Maietta:
Wyler holds the record for 12 nominations as best director. He's won 3. He won 3, best director Oscars, but he led actors to 14 wins, including de Havilland, as you said, including Barbra Streisand, including Audrey Hepburn in her film debut, Roman Holiday, Bette Davis and Jezebel. So, yes. When we're talking about mythic classic Hollywood directors, Wyler is right at the top.

Brad Shreve:
Well, and I did forget to tell you when I saw when I first saw about this film and I read what it's about and I read the actors, it got my attention. Mhmm. And then when I read that it was a romance drama gothic film, And I'm like, oh, wow. That's really cool. I will say it was not gothic. I don't know where they got that from. This was not a gothic film.

Tony Maietta:
Not quite right. That's Wuthering Heights that Wyler also directed.

Brad Shreve:
I really love the Wuthering Heights.

Tony Maietta:
Well, Wyler directed that. Sorry? Wyler directed that too.

Brad Shreve:
Wuthering Heights? Yeah. Wuthering Heights is one of the movies I will not watch, not because I I, you know, I told you I try to separate movies from novels. Mhmm. The pictures of the characters in the novels are so clear and distinct to me. I don't want to end up seeing them after watching the movie.

Tony Maietta:
Sure.

Brad Shreve:
Same thing with The Grapes of Wrath. It's my only other movie. I I adore The Grapes of Wrath. I know Henry Fonda's in it, and I don't want to see Henry Fonda when I read the novel. Mhmm. Yeah. So both of those, I do not watch. So I love Wuthering Heights.

Brad Shreve:
And because I won't watch it, I thought, okay. Well, good. I get to see a gothic romance. Well, it's not gothic. But do you want my you know, one of my feelings on this, Tony?

Tony Maietta:
Why not? Let's get it out. Let's get it over with. 

Brad Shreve:
Spectacular.

Tony Maietta:
Spectacular. Oh, good. Thank God. Oh, I can relax Monty, Livvy, we can relax. Brad likes us. He really likes us.

Brad Shreve:
I I don't know if Monty was around. I don't know if he could relax with me around, but, you know, that's a whole different story.

Tony Maietta:
 Mister Clift. Mister Clift. Yes. Just one of the many reasons to watch this film. Mister Montgomery Cliff in his 3rd film. This is only his 3rd movie. So it's pretty pretty amazing, and he was already well on his way.

Tony Maietta:
I mean, he was already hot, hot, hot by the time, he did the heiress. He actually been doing you know, Montgomery Clift started, in the mid thirties as an actor, and he turned down films for over 10 years before he started making films because he was so incredibly choosy about what he wanted to do, and he had definite ideas, but we'll get into that later. We'll get that. I well, let's talk a little bit about the movie. Right? Do you wanna talk do you want to discuss what the heiress is about? And then we can go into some of the production history and all that stuff.

Brad Shreve:
Absolutely. As Tony and I have already said, it's a 1949 romance drama, and it is adapted from the play, which is based on the novel Washington Square. And for those Washington Square is in New York City, currently Greenwich Village. I don't know if that was what it was called at that time. Yes. The story takes place in 1840. The book was published in 1880.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
It stars Olivia de Havilland as Katherine. She is a shy young woman from a wealthy family who falls for a handsome young man named Morris, who's played by Montgomery Cliffe. Her emotionally abusive father believes Morris is only after her for his inherit her inheritance, and he will not approve of their marriage. Now it sounds pretty simple.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
And, well, I guess the basis of the story is pretty simple, but, oh, the emotions are very Right. You know, there is nothing simple about this movie

Tony Maietta:
There is nothing.

Brad Shreve:
As far as the characters go in any way, shape, or form.

Tony Maietta:
No. In fact In fact

Brad Shreve:
go ahead. I'm sorry?

Tony Maietta:
I was gonna say Wyler Wyler, had meant some of the famous things that well, maybe not famous things, but some of the things that Wyler I

Brad Shreve:
was gonna say what?

Tony Maietta:
Oh, you go ahead then. If you got one, go go for it.

Brad Shreve:
So, anyway and to emphasize that, I'm gonna give a quote that Wyler said when this movie was released Mhmm. Because it really pegs what this movie is. He said, "the emotion and conflict between 2 people in a drawing room can be as exciting as a gun battle and possibly more exciting." That would and he proves it with this film.

Tony Maietta:
That's what I was gonna say. Yes. And it's true, because it's very true. You know, the thing about Wyler is that Wyler found the drama in the domestic. And exactly what you said, the conflict can be more, it can be the emotion and the conflict can be bigger when you're that closed off, when you're that when you're in that enclosed space. It it actually heightens it. And while there's so many amazing things with this film that that just just that push that home, you know, Wyler uses a lot of mirrors in this film. The the the heiress is it's based on the play.

Tony Maietta:
So there's a ten there's a possibility of it people saying, oh, it's too stagey. I never feel that way about the heiress because of the way Wyler 

Brad Shreve:
I don't feel that way at all.

Tony Maietta:
The way Wyler uses spaces. He uses mirrors to elongate, mirrors to reflect. You know, very frequently in the heiress, people are not addressing each other directly. They're talking to the person's reflection in the mirror, so they're removed. So they're not really confronting the people. Usually, this is Catherine and her father. They're not really confronting the the source of the tension. He also uses Wyler's Wyler is very famous for this, stairways.

Tony Maietta:
There are more there's more drama on a on a William Wyler stairway, I think, than there isn't any John Ford battle film. I mean, think about it. The well, I think about the little foxes. Now, I don't know if you've seen the little foxes, but there's a very famous scene where a character basically dies on a staircase while Bette Davis stays in sharp focus in the front, not moving a muscle. Herbert Marshall, who plays her husband, collapses on the stairway because she he needs his medicine, and she's not going to lift a finger to get it. There's, the stairway in the letter where Bette Davis shoots her lover to death. It's always Bette Davis, but there you go. She loved Wyler.

Tony Maietta:
And there's the the the staircase in the heiress where so much of Katherine's motivation, so much of Katherine's, just Katherine's inner life is depicted on these staircases. And I wanna we'll talk about them when we get to it. But I'm really glad that you like you said, that's spectacular, Brad, because I that that's those are my feelings about this film too. This film I've seen this film many, many times, and this film never bores me for a single second.

Brad Shreve:
Well, yeah. I'll tell you this. I think people watch it. They may find it slow. I found myself thinking it was slow, but it's not. It's it's because if this was made today, it would have been a much different movie. I kept watching these films, and I kept watching these very complex characters, and I kept thinking of it in terms of today. Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
And I kept thinking of all the stereotypes and the tropes that they would have used.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
Today. It is one of the most interesting things I found about this movie, and I've told you this before. I love a film that does not give me happy ending, and the reason is because it's unexpected. Heartbroken.

Tony Maietta:
I was very upset

Brad Shreve:
when this movie ended. I was like, I hate this film. But then once I calm down, I'm like, no. It is as it should be.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes. Well, I have read that it is one of the most uncompromising endings in a film ever, and that's very true. 

Brad Shreve:
That's Well, this film, it's made a lot of money since then, but it was a box office bomb, and I am almost certain the ending had a lot to do with it.

Tony Maietta:
I wouldn't say bomb. Okay. Don't say bomb. It didn't bomb. Any money. It was a humongous critical hit. It cost about 2,000,000 and it made about 2,000,000. So we're back to the bringing up baby thing where you're kinda like, okay.

Tony Maietta:
But there are other costs involved, certainly not so much as they are now because you're talking about a studio that is that has the production cost built in to publicizing this film. But it also was nominated for 8 Oscars, and it won 4. So that's not a bomb. That is a a critical success that eventually, yes, as the years went on and people began to reflect on this film and what it just just the brilliance of this film and the brilliance of the structure of this film and the character, it certainly has grown in stature. And yours interesting to say if it was made today, you know, it was there was a remake, air quotes, of this, which was actually called Washington Square, which is the novel that this play and film are suggested by, not based on. And it was with, Jennifer Jason Lee and Ben Chaplin. And the thing about Washington Square is is that it's not you can't say the errors is based on it, because there are definite differences in Washington Square, especially the ending. But we're not talking about Washington Square.

Tony Maietta:
We're talking about the errors. So, yeah, I think that it's probably it's the ending, you're right. I don't think there could be a more satisfying ending even though as we look at it, it might be considered an unhappy ending. But is it? I mean, Catherine is the hero of her own liberation here. You know? I mean, yeah. It's a hard won victory, and no champagne corks are popping at the end of this film. However, you get a real sense of victory from Catherine at the end of this film, which I think is kind of it's it's very dense and complex, which is one which this entire film is. The entire film is.

Brad Shreve:
Right. And that's that's one of the things I I love about this film when I said it it couldn't be made today. The father, for instance. Mhmm. He is very complex. He's not evil. He eventually eventually learned to despise him.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
But in the beginning, he he's cruel in an emotional way. He's not cruel in a physical way in any way. He's cruel emotionally, but in the beginning, it's not as heavy hitting. It's through really sharp, cruel comments, but they aren't, like, intentional. It's it's his inner thoughts coming out when they shouldn't be coming out, what he thinks of his daughter Right. As compared to his wife. So I like the fact that he is not this evil, mustache twirling villain. And when he tells her that she can't marry Morris or he doesn't want her to marry Morris, you understand where he's coming from.

Brad Shreve:
I disagreed with him, but I told him because it wasn't from because he actually was very are we going getting hard of ourselves here?

Tony Maietta:
What? We're getting ahead of ourselves? Well, no. We've been we've been talking about 15 minutes. 

Brad Shreve:
So the reasons he he treats, Morris very respectfully. He actually likes Morris. He finds him witty. He finds him entertaining. He finds him intelligent.

Tony Maietta:
Finds him impertinent impertinent.

Brad Shreve:
Educated. He just doesn't have the motivation. Yes. And therefore, he doesn't believe that he is a good person for his daughter, and he believes he's Morris is after his daughter's money.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yes. 

Brad Shreve:
Well But it's not like he didn't give the guy a chance.

Tony Maietta:
He did. 

Brad Shreve:
And it's not the fact that Morris doesn't have money. That's not the problem. The problem is not that Morris didn't have money because he did go to school and go to Europe, but he doesn't seem to have any plan on how to get ahead.

Tony Maietta:
Well, no. He squandered his money. He squandered his He

Brad Shreve:
squandered his

Tony Maietta:
According to doctor Sloper, he squandered his fortune. Now according to Morris, he didn't or his sister. He expanded his horizons. He expanded his capabilities by spending his money, so you gotta ask yourself that. But a lot of that has to do with Ralph Richardson. I mean, Ralph Richardson because of the way Richardson plays him, Richardson plays him as a wounded man, not an evil man, a man who has been wounded by life. Obviously, Katherine's mother was a great love of his life, and it's intimated that she died in childbirth.

Brad Shreve:
Mhmm.

Tony Maietta:
In the play, he's much harder, but again, because of Ralph Richardson, because there's a certain quirkiness to doctor Sloper with Ralph Richardson, the way he jangles the keys to wake her up, which was a choice of Richardson's when they were filming it. The way he the way he looks at her, he doesn't look at her directly. You know, he's he's he is thinking of his daughter, but unfortunately, he's not giving any love to his daughter. He thinks he's doing the best for her, but he can't love her. So as she says in the film, if you can't love me, you know, I don't think that Morris could have treated me any less kind than you've treated me. So what's the problem, dude? You know, let let why are you standing in my way? And in the play I'm sorry, in the book, Washington Square, he does disinherit her. Now in the play and the film, they soften that to where he just threatens to disinherit her. But in the play, Washington Square, she still doesn't she still does not run off with Morris.

Tony Maietta:
That still happens. He deserts her, but she will not promise her father that after he dies, she won't go running after him, as she does in the film. She says the same thing. But in the play in the book, Washington Square, he does disinherit her. She's an she ends up, like, a 5th of her income, which is still pretty good, you know, but it's not the it's not the, great inheritance that she would have gotten had he not disinherited her.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And, listener, her total inheritance is $30,000, which Right. I did the, the paperwork or the

Tony Maietta:
Oh, did you? The figures. I did too.

Brad Shreve:
It actually wasn't as much as I thought it would be. It's $1,100,000 a year that she gets.

Tony Maietta:
Still, nothing to sneeze.

Brad Shreve:
Nothing shabby, but I thought it would be much more than that.

Tony Maietta:
And she would get 10 if he disinherited her, she would still get her mother's, which is 10.

Brad Shreve:
So Yeah. She was gonna get 10 she she already was gonna get 10,000 a year. Still so that would I would guess equal about, you know, 350 333,000, let's say.

Tony Maietta:
Still a great deal of money. Still a great deal of money. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
None nothing to shake a stick at. Nothing to shake a stick at. I would think Morris would have been happy with that as well.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Well but but not when you're expecting, you know, a million. Over a million. 

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Exactly. So should I talk a little bit about the background of the heiress and how this all came into be?

Brad Shreve:
 No. I that's probably what people are here for.

Tony Maietta:
I don't know about that. Our pithy our pithy, unscripted banter. Meanwhile, where are my notes? So anyway, yes. So as I said, the heiress was, was suggested by the Henry James novel, Washington Square, made into a play by Ruth and Augustus Getz called The Heiress. And it was it starred Wendy Hiller, and it was a big hit on Broadway. And Olivia de Havilland had just secured well, recently, secured her independence from Warner Brothers. And we can talk a little bit about the de Havilland decision and and the things that Olivia de Havilland did for actors in perpetuity with the 7 year contract a little bit later. But, basically, she was one of the great champions of, really the almost the decline of the studio system.

Tony Maietta:
So she was looking for a she already won one Oscar, and she was always on the now that she had her freedom, she was looking for other projects. And she, saw the play on Broadway, and she knew that it was immediately for her. Because she identified with this story of this oppressed person constantly being underestimated, controlled, and unappreciated by those around her. It really resonated with her because that was pretty much her story at Warner Brothers. She was controlled, and she was, she was underestimated, and she was unappreciated. So she knew the person that she wanted to direct this film was William Wyler, probably because of the of the Little Foxes, because the Little Foxes starring her great friend, Betty Davis, was a tremendous success. Wyler directed it. He went, saw the play, agreed with her.

Tony Maietta:
He wanted to do it. So, Haviland was Haviland was very excited about this. They needed to find someone to play the fortune hunter, and they came upon the 29 year old Montgomery Clift, who as I said had just made, his film debut was Red River. He had just done The Search, and this would have been his 3rd film. Now Clift was 29, and De Havilland was 33, but I don't think that's an issue with, with the film. I think they seem perfectly perfectly well suited, age wise. Mhmm. So they the production began.

Tony Maietta:
And, you know, the the interesting thing is this, and we talked a little I talked a little bit about this. The big question is, is Morris out for her money or not? What what was your first initial idea, Brad, when you first saw it? Because you're in an enviable position here that you this was the first time you saw this film. So did you think this guy's a fortune hunter, or did you think, oh, he's misunderstood?

Brad Shreve:
I thought he was misunderstood. Interesting. I still question I know what the author's intent was, but my feeling is he is just a free spirit. And Mhmm. I'll tell you this. When she turned him away Yeah. No. No.

Brad Shreve:
When not when she when he left her, when she said, you know, that my father's gonna disinherit me and that sort of thing, I thought his not coming back was an act of love, that he didn't wanna come between her and her father.

Tony Maietta:
Well, then he fooled you too.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Because I was sad for her because I thought that's really cruel

Tony Maietta:
because that's his line.

Brad Shreve:
He didn't tell her why.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
But I thought for sure that's why he did it.

Tony Maietta:
You know one of the big reasons why you think that, if I may be so bold, is to make an assumption for you Sure. Is because it's Montgomery Clift. Because we have a character. You know, I've said this before. I call it padding a character. Actors bring certain qualities of their own individual personality to a part they play no matter what part they play. They bring part of their baggage. And one of Montgomery Cliffs' attributes, qualities was his soulfulness.

Tony Maietta:
He's a very sensitive, soulful actor. Even at this point, 3rd film, he has that quality. He also has a very contemporary quality, which can be problematic, but we can talk about Wyler actually got him a tutor to to teach him how to stand, how a man who was born a 100 years before stood. And you know what? I had the same problem too when I played Morris. I kept putting my hands in my pockets. And my director would say, take your hands out of your pockets. Take your hands out of your pockets. It's just, you know, different way of of holding yourself.

Tony Maietta:
So anyway, in the play, he's much more mercenary. In the play, it's a little more obvious that he's a fortune hunter. But in the film, and that's wonderful thing about the film is is, you know, Cliff's incredible softness, his soulfulness, you want him to be a good man. I mean, you feel for him at the end. Think about it if this had been Jack Palance or or even Kirk Douglas, who were both making movies at this time. In fact, Jack Palance played a very similar role in, that Joan Crawford film, Sudden Fear. Would we have a question of whether or not he was a fortune hunter, or would we just know? No. He's definitely a fortune hunter.

Tony Maietta:
But Cliff makes us guess. Cliff keeps us guessing, and that's one of the brilliant complex things about this film.

Brad Shreve:
Well, I agree. Well, he's very charming. Just very charming. He's not just handsome. He's charming. He's fun. And, you know, that's the way scoundrels are, the ones that are successful.

Tony Maietta:
Exactly.

Brad Shreve:
To to get a little back very, very quick backstory. I worked at a place where a woman that worked in a hotel, and we had a guest that stayed at the hotel. And I'm gonna try and make this very quickly. She basically had this whole scam developed with fake, bodyguards and being chased by the mob and all this other stuff. And she fortunately, I was seeing through her and nobody would listen to me. So I am rather proud of myself. She scammed a bunch of my coworkers from tons of money. 

Tony Maietta:
Oh, dear.

Brad Shreve:
Somewhat bankrupt because of her money. She ended up being wanted in 11 states. 

Tony Maietta:
Oh my god. 

Brad Shreve:
She was successful because she was so damn likable.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
 Well If she's not been likable, she would not have, snowed them all.

Tony Maietta:
Well, that's yes. You're right. That is a true sign of a sociopath, but also of somebody who can get away with this kind of stuff. So, yes, I think a lot of it but a lot of it really, really has to do with with Cliff's performance. I mean, with I'm sorry. With Cliff's the the qualities of Montgomery Cliff, which, you know, bled through as we know now into every one of his films, into a place in the sun, into from here to eternity. I mean, just as he went on into the misfits, even all the way up to near the end of his career. Another character another reason why I think we like Morris is because of Miriam Hopkins.

Tony Maietta:
Miriam Hopkins plays aunt Peneman, who is doctor Sloper's widowed sister, and, you know, the marvelous Merriam Hopkins. What's interesting about this film is that you've got it's a it was made in 49. 49, you can kind of say 49 is, like, smack in the middle of classic Hollywood. You have an actress, Miriam Hopkins, who was very closely identified with Pre Code with the early thirties. She was a wonderful star in the early thirties and also a wonderful thorn in the side of Bette Davis, because if we ever wanna talk about a feud, it was actually it wasn't Crawford and Davis. It was Miriam Hopkins and Davis. Oh. Because they did some films together, and Betty could not stand her.

Tony Maietta:
Okay? So you have Miriam Hopkins who's kind of the from the old thirties, and then you have the way of the future. You have Montgomery Clift, the new breed, if you will. Clift was really the new the first one of the new breed of actors coming to Hollywood who then went to Brando and Dean who kind of revolutionized film acting. So you have these 2 different distinct eras meeting in this film, and Olivia de Havilland is right between them, right in the middle of them. Do I need to tell anybody that Olivia de Havilland played Melanie in Gone with the Wind, or do we pretty much

Brad Shreve:
Well, now they know.

Tony Maietta:
Now they I should probably have said that when I was talking about Olivia D'Avelyn.

Brad Shreve:
And you made me think of something I wanted to bring up, but but I wanna go back to Miriam Hopkins as Lavinia. I'm not really familiar with her. I absolutely loved her as Lavinia. I would say that if there was ever a 2 dimensional character in this film, it would be very easy to pinpoint it as her. But if you really looked at the film again, not true. No. Because she really had to play the goalie between loving her brother and loving her niece. And Was she her mother's sister?

Tony Maietta:
No. Austin Slopers. Her doctor Sloper's sister.

Brad Shreve:
Okay. So it was his sister.

Tony Maietta:
Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. So she was kind of having to play the referee between the 2 and knowing when each was wrong, but loving both of them. So that was really well done.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Very, very believable.

Tony Maietta:
Well, also

Brad Shreve:
too. Adored her in this film. So I I don't know her. Please tell me that she's not a royal bitch in real life.

Tony Maietta:
She was problematic. She was a royal bitch to Bette Davis because she was

Brad Shreve:
Well, that's that's cute.

Tony Maietta:
Which is not surprising. Bette Davis Bette Davis got along with very few actresses. One of the actresses she did get along with, though, was Olivia de Havilland. They were she was as close to Olivia de Havilland as she was to any other actress. But that's because Olivia I have a very funny Olivia de Havilland Bette Davis story. I'm gonna say it really quickly because I don't forget it. So I get back to, probably. We'll get back to the air.

Brad Shreve:
Go ahead.

Tony Maietta:
So I saw Olivia de Havilland. The academy was doing a celebration of Betty Davis' centenary, her 100th year. She was obviously not alive, but Olivia de Havilland was, and Olivia de Havilland was, the surprise guest, with Robert Osborne. And, Robert introduces her and the place went crazy. Oh, my god. It's Olivia de Havilland. She told a very funny story about Bette Davis, and she said, you know, Bette always liked to play Scarlett O'Hara to my Melanie Wilkes. And then she stopped, and she turned out to the audience, and she said, but I really was Melanie Wilkes.

Tony Maietta:
Anyway, that's we can probably cut that. So anyway but what I wanna say about yes. The thing about, the character of aunt what what Marion Hopkins brings to the character of aunt Penniman is, again, some complexes. There's a there's a scene where she's talking about because she's a she's a widow, but she's been a widow for years, but she's always in black. And I think she says when they're on their way to the engagement party where Katherine first meets Morris, I'm just as grief stricken wherever I am. And then she laughs. I mean, that's the kind of thing. You know, she's like, is it appropriate for me to go to this party? Oh, I'm just as grief stricken wherever I am.

Tony Maietta:
And so that's the thing. These these characters are so complex. They're so layered. And, yeah, she's a bit of an she's a bit of a nudge. She's a bit of a busybody, but she's also Catherine's confessor. Thank god that woman is in this house. Otherwise, how would how has Catherine survived this long in this loveless home is beyond me. Thank god she's got aunt Lividia to help her.

Tony Maietta:
Aunt Lividia is very much a romantic. She's the one who who wants Catherine and Morris to be together even though she probably suspects that Morris is after her money as well as everybody else. But what the hell? He's a good looking guy, and he might treat her better than her father is treating her. So why not? I mean, it's a very valid point. It's a very valid point.

Brad Shreve:
Can't be much worse. Tony, you and I get excited when we get messages and emails and texts from listeners that tell us how much they enjoy the show. We do. But, you know, I think we should push it a little bit and ask them to go a little bit further.

Tony Maietta:
Oh, challenge.

Brad Shreve:
If you enjoy this show, let others know. Five stars are great. Whatever you wanna give except 1 star. If you have 1 star, say, you know, that show is not for me and move on.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. You don't need to don't give us one star because just say, no. Not for me. Just skip it. Or tell your friends. That's the best way too. Right? Tell your friends, hey. I have this great fun podcast with these 2 kooky guys who talk about movies and TV.

Tony Maietta:
We run the gamut. We have everything.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. We're all over the place.

Tony Maietta:
We're all over the place is a better way to put it.

Brad Shreve:
But in a good way. So do it right now before you forget.

Tony Maietta:
So anyway, I'd love well, I think one of the things I love about this film, if we can talk about a couple of these scenes, I think probably one of the most well known things about the heiress and one of the main reasons that Olivia de Havilland won the best actress Oscar for this performance is her physicality. Now Olivia de Havilland was one of the most beautiful women in the world. I mean, she was made she was, made Marian for Christ's sake in Robin Hood. I mean, she was a beautiful, beautiful woman. So how do you have this beautiful woman, this legendary legendarily beautiful woman play this part of this wallflower of of this unattractive, awkward girl? Well, they did makeup. You know, they gave her a very unflattering hairstyle, part in the middle. She looks like she has, you know, her her her demeanor is very pallid, but de Havilland does it all in her body language. Mhmm.

Tony Maietta:
How she hunches. How awkward she is.

Brad Shreve:
Her face is.

Tony Maietta:
Gauche she is. And you buy it. I mean, even Wyler said, you know, it was kind of hard for us to pull over the fact that Olivia de Havilland is unattractive. But because of the physical because of the physical thing she did with her performance, she was able to project that idea, which I as an actor, I love that. I love when actors do that.

Brad Shreve:
You see, I felt a little bit different about her looks because I'm sitting there watching, and I'm like, Olivia Hoville and is playing this plain Jane, not not kind of not homely, but just not, you know, kind of just a plain looking woman. And I and I started thinking about Gone with the Wind and Melanie, even though I've never watched Gone with the Wind from beginning to I know the whole movie.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
Melanie has always been my favorite character because I tend to like the underdog. Mhmm. And so I'm very sad about Melanie's life, and, you know, she's in Scarlet's shadow most of the time. And so I thought, okay. She did that character. She this character, and I thought, I always think of Olivia De Havilland as a knockout. So let me look. And I looked up her pictures.

Brad Shreve:
She's very pretty, but I was actually expecting much more of much more than than she is.

Tony Maietta:
Well, have you have you seen her?

Brad Shreve:
Her older pictures. Yeah. And she was she was a beautiful older woman.

Tony Maietta:
She was yeah. She was a beautiful woman, period. I mean, have you have you seen Robin Hood? Have you seen her

Brad Shreve:
in Robin Hood? I have, but it was ages ago. So I will have to go watch it.

Tony Maietta:
You have to look at you have to look at the thirties films. You know, by the forties when she had her freedom and she was doing all kinds of parts like the snake pit and, the dark mirror, she was able to and the heiress, she was able to play with her looks, but stunningly beautiful in

Brad Shreve:
Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
The Private Lives of Elizabeth Essex, one of her films she made with Bette Davis, gorgeous woman. But here's another thing that de Havilland does, which I love, and we talked about this a little bit with Streetcar Named Desire, is her voice. That's probably the most well known thing that de Havilland did. Because in the early scenes, she's very breathy, she's very flighty. Everything is up here. Oh, Morris. Oh, Morris. Oh, Morris.

Tony Maietta:
And then when Morris leaves her, we get the first hint of the devastation, and we get the first hint of this of of the pain that Katherine is feeling, and her voice begins to drop. And then the scene, the scene after Morris is gone and she's with her father, her voice suddenly begins to get deeper and deeper and deeper. And if you watch that scene, you'll notice that many of Olivia de Havilland's lines are looped, which means she went in after filming and dubbed in her lines. I think most likely because she wanted to get that sense of depth, that sense of pain. And then so by the final act, when it's been a couple years and Morris comes back and her father is dead and she is now a very substantial woman of means, she sounds I mean, she's got Agnes Moorehead type delivery. Her voice is very deep and very commanding. And you know this is a woman that you do not wanna fuck with. And that's, you know, as an actor, as an actor, I love when actors do that.

Tony Maietta:
It's so technical, but it puts across so much in just that little detail. And that was very important to de Havilland that that she'd do that. And obviously, to Wyler because it comes across beautifully. You get that strength. And it wasn't just her voice. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
Who we see at the beginning of the film is exactly looks like the person we see at the end of the film yet looks totally different.

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Yes.

Brad Shreve:
It's quite a made her face and her the way she carries herself are worlds apart even though you know you're looking at the same person. She she deserved the award, hands down.

Tony Maietta:
Well, yes. And she yeah. She does. She's not suddenly prettier. It's not like she became, you know, the ugly duckling turned into a swan. She looks physically the same, but she doesn't carry herself the same. She doesn't harumph around a room. You know, she is very much in control.

Tony Maietta:
She's very she's very still. She's very concise with her movements. And I think one of the most interesting things I find in that scene after Morris has left is, Morris has said to doctor Sloper at one point because doctor Sloper says that you're taking advantage of a week ago, and Morris says, I don't think Katherine is weak. And you realize at the end, she's not. She's not weak at all. She's just like her father. Mhmm. I have been taught by masters.

Tony Maietta:
If doctor Sloper had only realized that instead of constantly comparing her to her mother and said, well, now this girl is very much like me in her strength and her determination, which allows her to do what she does at the end of the movie. So I think that's that's that's amazing to me that you come to that realization, oh, it's not just because she's been jilted by Morris. This is who she is. This act just brought it forward. Until at the end, she's just as uncompromising as doctor Sloper.

Brad Shreve:
You know, I said he wasn't cruel at the beginning and but you could just see the painting was inflicted on her. Listen. He he kept referring basically, if you think of somebody that, you know, they're not as good as their brother, that's basically she was with her mother. Yeah. Well, she's not her mother. She didn't she wasn't as pretty as her mother. She wasn't as gay as her mother. She wasn't as witty as her mother.

Brad Shreve:
And it just kept coming out. It was not like a direct, you're nothing like your mother. It was just these little offhanded remarks all the time. Well, you know when So little little daggers You know all her life. Exactly.

Tony Maietta:
Doctor Sloper Richardson would say the nastiest things to her, but in that kind tone. Mhmm. So you're not really sure was was that an insult? What? What? No. It doesn't sound like one because everything was like this. You know? It's it's really interesting the choices that he made, which also led to this, you know, and you can't escape I wanna talk a little bit about William Wyler. You know, William Wyler, 40 take Willie is what they used to call him.

Brad Shreve:
Mhmm.

Tony Maietta:
Because he was a perfectionist, and I think that's probably the reason why de Havilland wanted him because this was so important to her, and she wanted someone she could completely trust. I mean, he was Bette Davis' favorite director, and we all know. If you know anything my baby from our from our Baby Jane podcast, you know, Bette Davis was a handful. She adored Wyler because he was as much a perfectionist as she was. So 40 take Wyler, and while it wasn't like Wyler would get with his actors. We've talked about other directors like Sydney Pollock, who would get with the actor and really give them their motivation and talk to them about character develop. No. No.

Tony Maietta:
No. No. Henry Fonda told a story about they were doing a scene from Jezebel, and he had him do it, like, 40 times. And all Wyler would say would be again, again, again. And Fonda finally asked him for guidance, and Wyler said, it stinks. That was that was his guidance, but he got it. Streisand oh, Streisand says his thing same thing about Wyler and Funny Girl. He he was not a communicative director, but he just led you.

Tony Maietta:
He just guided you to this performance. And he that scene, when Morris leaves, you know, he's not showing up, and she goes back up the stairway with her suitcase.

Brad Shreve:
Mhmm. And you

Tony Maietta:
know how she plods up they did that over 50 times. Until finally, Olivia De Havilland was so infuriated, she threw the suitcase at Wyler, and he picked it up, and he realized, oh, I know what the problem is. So he filled it with books. So don't throw a suitcase at the director or you're really gonna pay. So when she plods up that suit look at her. What if you haven't watched this movie, listener, when you're watching it, look at her face when she's going up that staircase. In the play, there's a whole big scene about where she has a breakdown, where she's crying about how nobody loves me, my mother didn't love me, nobody loves me. That's not in the play.

Tony Maietta:
That's not in the movie, because it's not needed. Mhmm. Because you get it all in De Havilland's face, in the way she's walking up that stairway carrying the books as it turns out in that suitcase. It's it's amazing, and these are this is the kind of thing that Wyler did. This is why 14 actors won Oscars under Wyler, because he could do things like this, and actors loved him for it.

Brad Shreve:
Something I'm curious about. Did you do the were you in the play or did you see the movie first?

Tony Maietta:
I had seen the movie. I saw the movie years ago.

Brad Shreve:
When did you see what was your first, introduction into the film?

Tony Maietta:
And to to watch the eras? I'm not sure it was on videotape. You know, that's usually the way that I the way that I saw movies back then. I I might have been on television. I doubt it. I'm sure I probably sought it out because, you know, I was I was acting, so I knew about this play, and I knew this was maybe a part I would wanna play someday. And it turned out it happened. But I'm I'm sure it was probably yeah. I don't think it wasn't in the theater, unfortunately.

Tony Maietta:
I don't think I've ever seen the the film in a theater, which is sad because I think in a theater, it would be incredible.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, it would be gorgeous. I I'm asking because I'm curious what your feelings were about Morris.

Tony Maietta:
When I first saw it, I will Yeah. Like yours. I'm in you know, I'm so enamored of Clift. You know, how can you not be in love with this man? I mean, he's not only incredibly beautiful, but he is. He's so soulful and vulnerable. That was the thing about Cliff. That was what was new about Cliff. That was what was exciting to audiences about Cliff, this new type of leading man who was who had a softness, who had a vulnerability.

Tony Maietta:
You know? He he wasn't Clark Gable. God knows. He wasn't Gary Cooper who barely, you know, said three words. He was a soulful young man. And, you know, you can see it in a same thing with Brando. Same thing with, Dean. That was that whole thing. But, you know, Clifton, I I wanna clarify something too, and I I I said in our Streetcar Named Desire episode.

Tony Maietta:
Clifton was not a method actor. He actually denigrated the method. He didn't understand it. He always said that what this quote unquote method is is what any good actor does instinctively. Brando said the same thing. Brando was not a method actor. So they kinda get lumped in with these method actors, and, no, that wasn't them at all. They were taught by people who use facets of the method, but, no, he was a new style of actor because he plugged into his sensitivity, because he thought about a role.

Tony Maietta:
However, here's an interesting thing. De Havilland said, talking about working with Cliff, because it was not a happy working experience for Olivia De Havilland. Even though she wanted Willie William Wyler to direct her in this film, and she was very excited, she also said that he treated her very badly on the set. He and Ralph Richardson would completely ignore her at times and just, you know, dismiss her. And she's like, but I'm Olivia freaking de Havilland. I put this whole thing together. What but think about that for a minute. It makes perfect sense.

Tony Maietta:
What is what what what is Catherine feeling? Overlooked. Ignored. Another genius thing that Wyler did. So he put his actors through the ringer because he knew that is what he wanted to get out of her for Catherine. But she also said that she didn't working with Cliff was very difficult because he would rehearse. He would go over. He he would basically figure out everything he was going to do the night before, which as an actor, you're taught you don't do that. You know, you you need your you leave yourself open to the spontaneity of the moment.

Tony Maietta:
Cliff seemed to have everything planned out, and Cliff wasn't really acting with her, she said. He was acting with his acting coach, who was on the other side of the soundstage, and he would always look to the acting coach after a scene. And then she realized, well, what is Morris doing in this play in this film? He's acting. So that makes perfect sense. So Cliff is not going to be spontaneous in the scene with her. As Morris, he's doing what Montgomery Clift did as an actor. He's got his moves pre planned. He's got his motivations pre planned.

Tony Maietta:
So it's really kind of amazing when you think about how these people created these characters that that just made this all the richer in its tapestry.

Brad Shreve:
And that's where I was taken in because what I loved about Morris was his spontaneity. The fact that he took off to Europe and didn't worry, you know, had a good time while he spent his,

Tony Maietta:
The character's spontaneity. Mhmm. The character's spontaneity.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Yes. This character's pun

Tony Maietta:
intended.

Brad Shreve:
Exactly. Took off to Europe and had a good time. And and his impulse to just quickly marry her right after they met. And Well,

Tony Maietta:
but he did that in his life, but he's Yeah. He's not spontaneous with Katherine. He's not spontaneous in their scenes together. Think of some of the things he say. You're like, dude, slow your role. You know? When when, like, when when Ralph Richardson when doctor Sloper compliments him on his cologne, he's like, here, we'll have it. He's like, no. That's okay.

Tony Maietta:
I'm not gonna take your cologne. I'm like, dude. And he calls doctor he's, why wouldn't I call on an attractive girl and her attractive father? And and Ralph Richardson looks at him like, okay. I mean, you you wanna say Morris. Slow your roll, dude. Be cool. Because he's got all of the stuff planned out, but you don't really realize it. I think the first time you're watching it, you have to watch it again to really see the machinations of Morris Townsend.

Brad Shreve:
And, you know, there's little hints of it. Like, one thing I kept getting so uncomfortable you know, Americans were used to our space. We want our space. And not all cultures are like that. You know, like, some get really in your face. And the whole time he kept talking to to Catherine, he was, like, right in her space, and you could see how uncomfortable she was. I'm like, dude, hold back. That's really an improper improper for 1840.

Brad Shreve:
You know? And

Tony Maietta:
Yes. Until, though, until he kisses her. Yes. If you notice, once he kisses her, she is right back in his face from then on, and she immediately says, I love you. Immediately, that one kiss. Mhmm. And another brilliant thing about this film. Yeah.

Tony Maietta:
He is. You're right. He's right up in her face right up in her face until he gets the result he wants, and then he doesn't have to worry about it.

Brad Shreve:
He's trying to throw off his prey.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So when you really look at it so when he comes back, this is and this is my difference. So I think in the first half, he he is after her money. He, you know, he doesn't have any money. He's yeah. He could go out and get a job, but, you know, he's thinking I look like Montgomery Clift.

Tony Maietta:
I don't need to go work. Some I'll get some money from somewhere. So he is, but I really think and this is the way this is the way I approached it as an actor. The way I approached it was was that was that, yeah, I was a little mercenary. I was thinking, although it's dangerous when you're an actor to think anything negative about your character, because we don't think negative things about ourselves, so why would they? But, but then when he comes back after all those years and he has not made a success in California, and she even says it. You know, he was he's grown greedier over the years. The first time he just wanted my money. Now he wants my love.

Tony Maietta:
Mhmm. And that's what's so that's how she knows that her ultimate, you know, screw you at the end. Bolt the door, Mariah, bolt it, is really going to affect him, because now he does he is loving her. Now he's a little desperate, and he is loving her. So I think that the second yes. When he comes back, I think he really does want a life with her, because he realizes after a few years, you know, flummoxing around California that he had it really good, and he screwed it up. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And see, I I I was still pulling for him, and I thought for sure he's gonna come back. He wasn't necessarily wealthy, but had made a good life for himself, and he was coming back for her to finally prove himself to her father.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
I really did not wanna dislike this guy. So I was kind of bummed out at the end. I kinda wanna go back to how cruel this father was because, you know, we said that it was like small daggers. Mhmm. But there is that scene where he just lets it out. And it's one of the cruelest things. It just crushed her, but it actually made her stronger in some way.

Tony Maietta:
In the end. But you notice how she deflates? You notice how de Havilland just when he says those things, those terrible things to her, she just deflates. Her whole body goes down. It's it's a stunning choice. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And I'm gonna it's a long quote, but I I wanna say it because it really Okay. Emphasizes what this guy is like. Mhmm. This is after after, Catherine when she's planning to marry Morris.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
And, her father basically says, well, why would he want you? And she's, you know, why wouldn't he? Then the father says, your gaiety and brilliance will make up the difference between the 10,000 a year you will have and the 30,000 he expects. And she does he he said, she he does not love me for that. And then the quote again, father, quote, what else then? Your grace, your charm, your quick tongue, and subtle wit? Yes. Catherine, I've tried for months not to be unkind, but now it's time for you to realize the truth. 100 women are prettier, a 1000 are more clever, and you have one virtue that outshines them all, your money. You have nothing else. I've known you all your life, and I've yet to seen you learn anything except one exception, my dear, you embroidered neatly.

Tony Maietta:
How cruel. Yeah. And she says, what a terrible thing to say to me. And that's the first time her voice drops. Yes. That's the first time she hits a lower register because she's been well, she's been assaulted by his words, but she's also realizing the true the real tragedy of the heiress is this is a woman who realizes that the men in her life don't love her. Mhmm. No one in her life loves her.

Tony Maietta:
Her aunt, okay. But the 2 main men are the men that she has basically lived for up to this point do not love her. And that is the true tragedy of Catherine Sloper and the heiress. So at the end, when Norris comes back and she makes him think that she's going to go away with him and you notice how she gives him his buttons, the button she bought for him in Paris when they were on their European tour. Yep. That's the last thing of his that's the last thing she has that will ever remind her of him. And it's like, here you go. Goodbye.

Tony Maietta:
The last vestige of this unfortunate episode. So when she turns up that stairway, again, another William Wyler stairway. The last time we saw Katherine go up that stairway, she was plotting up rejected with her luggage and looking like, you know, like, she'd been run over, like, hit by a bus, which she had been. She walks up that stairway and, you know, he's banging on the door behind her, Catherine, Catherine, Catherine. And she slowly ascends, and she gets a slight smile on her face. Mhmm. It's not a big smile, but it is a smile. You have to look very closely for it.

Tony Maietta:
And that says, this is a victory for this woman. This woman, yes, it's a horrible victory. You know, it's a devastating victory, but it's a victory. She's going to live her life. She owns her life now. She owns her space. She owns herself. And, you know, it is that's why it's one of the most uncompromising endings of the era, but I think also one of the most satisfying in my opinion.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. And it wasn't, it was the way she carried herself. Just, you know, he's banging on the door. She calmly closes the curtains. She calmly turns the lamp down. She calmly goes up the stairs. And and and when I'm saying calmly, you can see the the look on her face of that mix of anger and satisfaction. Mhmm.

Brad Shreve:
Yeah. But it's it's not like crying or fury. It's just almost like gracefully destroying this man.

Tony Maietta:
She well, she is. Yeah. It's it's her all it's the ultimate revenge. It's the rejection. You know what I mean? And it's I don't wanna call it a victory, but it's it's pretty damn close to a victory, but it's a victory nonetheless. And you just know she's gonna be fine. You know? She's gonna live her life. She's gonna be that rich old lady in that mansion at Washington Square for the rest of her life, and, she'll be just fine.

Brad Shreve:
She'll be just fine. And that's where I'm not fine with it. You know, I after her father died and they went, you know, a couple years a few years past

Tony Maietta:
Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
And then, the the children when they're calling her aunt Catherine. Mhmm. And I'm looking at her and she I said, oh, she's she looks like the old maid, you know, the old lady that lives by herself that give makes cookies for the kids and, you know, but she's wealthy.

Tony Maietta:
With a shit ton of money.

Brad Shreve:
And then I thought A shit

Tony Maietta:
ton with a shit ton of money.

Brad Shreve:
Well, she's got yes. I know she's got a shit ton of money but and then he comes back and I'm like, oh, I mean I don't I don't like necessarily when the man saves the day, but that was the era. And then in the end, she does turn out to be probably the old woman that will be alone the rest of her life. Probably probably go to charity events and that kind of thing. I don't know because she's very shy. So No. Not anymore.

Tony Maietta:
She just doesn't she doesn't wanna go out anymore. She says she she she enjoys her home. She enjoys her castle on Washington Square. When her when her cousin says, you know, you never go out, come come come to Newport. I think it was Newport they go to for the summer. Mhmm. She's like, I like the square. That's because that's her domain.

Tony Maietta:
That's where she is. That she doesn't have to she didn't have to worry about anybody else when she's there. And she really is the queen of her domain. So I don't know. I find kind of a, a joyful not a joyful. A a a resignation, a positive resignation in the ending of that. As I said, she is she is just declared her liberation. You know what? She is her own person.

Brad Shreve:
One thing I'm confused about is at at the end when Morris shows up at the door and he pretty much proposes to her again, and she said, yes. I'll meet you. You know, I'll meet you here at such and such a time or wherever. Mhmm. And so all the arrangements are made. They're gonna they're gonna run off and get married, and he leaves. And before we know that she is tricking him and is not gonna have anything to do with him, she sits down and starts going back to her embroidery.

Tony Maietta:
Right.

Brad Shreve:
And her aunt says, you need to get ready. And and she says, no. Something to the effect that I need to do this because I will do it no more.

Tony Maietta:
Right. I'll never do it.

Brad Shreve:
Yes. Well, if if he's going away, why is she never gonna do embroidery again? Because I thought that to mean, okay. She's gonna be married, and maybe that was just to throw us off because I said, oh, she said she's never gonna do it again because she's gonna get married and then have to embroider anymore.

Tony Maietta:
Because she's turned the page. What does her father say to her? You have one quality, one good quality. You embroider neatly, I think he says, or night and she has just this is her day of independence. She does that's over. She's turning the page. The old Catherine is completely gone. She came back to full Morris, and that's now over. So she's like, I'm and it's the very last thing in the way she stabs that needle into the embroidery.

Tony Maietta:
He came back with the same lies, the same foolish promises, and that's over. That part of her life is over. She is now on to the next chapter after Morris, after her father. This is now her life. Who knows what? She might end up in Europe. She might she might meet another fortune hunter and decide, okay, I'll I'll spend my life with you. But that part of her life is over and that you embroidered neatly that he says to her is part of her old life. Gone.

Tony Maietta:
Over with. Done.

Brad Shreve:
Now that you say it, it seems obvious. I'm almost embarrassed to have.

Tony Maietta:
No. No. It's well, you know, again I'm a film historian. I've started this film a little bit. But, no, I mean, it's it's, it's it's remarkable. It's one of the really wonderfully complex things about this film that make it such satisfying viewing. And, no. You're right.

Tony Maietta:
It wasn't a huge hit. It wasn't a flop. It was not a big moneymaker when it came out, but it's definitely grown in stature, and I think it's definitely I mean, for de Havilland's performance alone, it is very, very important viewing. It's you know? And it also won the score, the Aaron Copeland score won. The production design, the costume design, gorgeous. They all won. Wyler was nominated, didn't win. Ralph Richardson was nominated, didn't win.

Tony Maietta:
But still, de Havilland. This is de Havilland's movie. You know? And thank God she won. She deserved it.

Brad Shreve:
And while you're going over that, let's let's just jump into how this movie did. So I'll

Tony Maietta:
get some numbers. How did this movie perform?

Brad Shreve:
Okay. The budget of this film estimated $2,600,000. It earned in 1949 and 1955, 2,300,000. So it did lose a little bit. That's why I said it was a flop, which is really surprising considering how much the you know, it premiered at Radio City. The, reviews were, like, outstanding. But since that time, Paramount has done well. They've earned a $159,000,000 off this movie.

Brad Shreve:
So it was a long term investment that paid off.

Tony Maietta:
Definitely.

Brad Shreve:
The critic score on Rotten Tomatoes is 100%. Audience score is 93%, which isn't surprising because there's a lot more audience score than, critics score. Both of those are outstanding. Mhmm. And as you said, it was nominated for 8 awards, including the best picture and best director, which it didn't get, but it did get the others. Now I was looking at this year in films. It wasn't a year of bad films, but it wasn't a year of ground break breaking films that people will remember. No.

Brad Shreve:
All the King's Men may be 1.

Tony Maietta:
But I

Brad Shreve:
think a lot of it's because there were a lot of war films this year.

Tony Maietta:
Yeah. It was So let

Brad Shreve:
me go over what the best picture and the highest grossing films were. The best picture was won by all the king's men, and then others that were nominated in addition to the heiress was Battleground, A Letter to 3 Wives, and 12 O'clock High. Mhmm. The highest grossing films, number 1, was 12 O'clock High. Mhmm. The highest grossing films, number 1 was Samson and Delia, another Cecil b DeMille movie. Then we have Battleground. Then we have Jolson Sings Again.

Brad Shreve:
But then we have 2 more war movies, Sands of Iwo Jima and I Was a Male War Bride. Heiress was the 8th top grossing film in this

Tony Maietta:
Oh, wow.

Brad Shreve:
So none of them are like you you don't sit and you pine over, like, 39 or No. Some of the other years. I I know there's

Tony Maietta:
There's a those are some decent movies. I mean, a letter to 3 wives is a wonderful film. Right. Joseph Almankowitz is you know, it's the precursor all about Eve. So it's a wonderful film. I'm I Was a Male War Bride is a wonderful film too. But, yeah, it wasn't a great it wasn't a mythic year in films. It's one of the reasons why, you know, I think de Havilland absolutely deserved the Oscars for this.

Tony Maietta:
But, I mean, she didn't have great competition. You know, she had Loretta Young, I think, was one of her you know, I'd have to I'd have to go and look it up, who the other actresses nominated that year were, but, I mean, she didn't have it wasn't the year of, Vivian Lee in the Streetcar Named Desire, which, by the way, was offered to De Havilland, and she turned it down. How about that? She didn't wanna do Streetcar.

Brad Shreve:
Oh, really?

Tony Maietta:
I think she was probably like, I worked with 1 actor. Like, I don't need another one of these new breed of actors to work with. So, yeah, I was she definitely, definitely deserved it. She deserved it. And let's just talk about De Havilland for a minute, who died in 2020 at the age of 104. Wow. I mean, that woman was the woman was incredible. The woman you know, it's funny even watch these she she got older, and she would talk she mostly talked about Gone with the Wind.

Tony Maietta:
But when she would talk about her career, very long, very her speech became very elongated, very, very grand, very so it's funny to see her when she's younger, and she doesn't have quite that affectation. But, you know, this was a woman who literally won the right, basically delivered actors from from servitude. Because before the before she sued Warner Brothers, what happened was was after the fulfillment of her initial 7 year contract in 43, she thought she was done. And then the studio said, oh, no. No. You're not done. You still owe us 6 more months because of all the suspensions you went on because of films you didn't wanna make. So when you didn't wanna make a movie, the studio would put you on suspension, and you would be on suspension for the exact amount of time it took to film that movie that you turned down.

Tony Maietta:
So contracts could go on and on and on. And now, Bette Davis tried to do this in the thirties, and she lost. She did not win this case. De Havilland heard from her lawyer that maybe you have a shot. So she did. She took Warner Brothers to court, and she won. And later, the court of appeals ruled in her favor. So the De Havilland law states the length of any personal services contract cannot be longer than 7 calendar years, period.

Tony Maietta:
That doesn't just go for actors. That's any personal services contract, and it's a law. It's in the books. So you gotta give this woman a credit even if you're not an actor. I find that so incredible that she said, no, Don. I'm fighting this. This is not gonna happen. And it changed it really changed Hollywood.

Tony Maietta:
It was really one of the very first cracks in the studio system. So, anyway, I had to get that in there because I find that so incredibly wonderful about Olivia de Havilland. So are

Brad Shreve:
you happy I liked it?

Tony Maietta:
I'm very happy you liked it. I you know, I kinda thought that you would. I mean, it's not

Brad Shreve:
I'm glad you calmed your nerve.

Tony Maietta:
I I I mean, come on. How could you not love it? How could you not love this film? Yeah. It could be people could look at it as slow, but I hate that.

Brad Shreve:
I could see a lot of people not loving this film. Some people really insist on a happy ending.

Tony Maietta:
Well, they certainly just they I I've read

Brad Shreve:
the book reviews on on different book you know, different books that don't have Well happy endings per se. Not necessarily bad, sad endings, but, you know, people want a storybook happy ending.

Tony Maietta:
And and,

Brad Shreve:
you know And people don't a lot of people don't like them.

Tony Maietta:
Well, one of the things I love about this movie is, like life, it's it's a different kind of happy ending. It may not be the happy ending that we think we should have. But if you look long enough, you look hard enough, you find a certain satisfaction in the ending. She freed herself. She freed herself, and she may she is now her own person. So this is a lot of fun. I'm glad we talked about it. I'm glad you suggested it.

Tony Maietta:
Thank you. I wanna say that we got one more coming up. Right? And then we're done with our first series.

Brad Shreve:
And then, not another one till Christmas.

Tony Maietta:
And then we have our special Christmas episode. So stay tuned for the next one coming up. I'm excited about it. It's one of Brad's favorite movies. Yeah.

Brad Shreve:
I picked the next one too.

Tony Maietta:
You did. You picked the last 2. But I picked the I picked the previous 27.

Brad Shreve:
And unlike Deadpool, where people watch this you know, folks, Deadpool did not get as many hits as our other shows. Go and listen to it because you'll be you probably think, oh, it's Deadpool. You will be surprised Tony's take on Deadpool.

Tony Maietta:
So good. It was fun. It's it's actually a fun movie. Tony was surprised. I was surprised. I was surprised. You know? I always enjoy talking to you, Brad. So you know what? Let's not say goodbye. Let's just say au revoir

Brad Shreve:
No, Tony. Let's say goodbye. 

Tony Maietta:
Bolt the door, Mariah.